Where Did Things Go So Wrong?!?

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by rhadin

As regards your opinions, there will always be 2 schools: those who won't read your books because they hate your politics and those who are mature enough to separate the two.

It isn't about "maturity"-- it is about a fundamental difference in worldview. The types of controls he wants put on the internet to me represent an oppressive distopia. If we can't even agree on something as fundamental as what is a good thing for the future, why would I want to visit a future he envisions?

Give this very short Cory Doctorow story a quick read:

http://craphound.com/?p=573

Doctorow on the side of the guy with the printer. Jordan is on the side of the thugs that would be breaking down his door.

Who do you think is more likely to see my support and dollars?

[ApK]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

It isn't about "maturity"-- it is about a fundamental difference in worldview. The types of controls he wants put on the internet to me represent an oppressive distopia. If we can't even agree on something as fundamental as what is a good thing for the future, why would I want to visit a future he envisions?

If THAT is your reasoning, it seems pretty darned closed minded.
If nothing else, you have no idea if any of that ideology shows itself in his fiction.

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

It isn't about "maturity"-- it is about a fundamental difference in worldview. The types of controls he wants put on the internet to me represent an oppressive distopia. If we can't even agree on something as fundamental as what is a good thing for the future, why would I want to visit a future he envisions?

I guess I'd say for the same reason that I read novels about murder, rape, war, assassination, or organized religion. I don't like, approve, or support any of those things yet if a book is well-written it can be entertaining or even stimulate thought. One cannot debate only with those with whom one agrees.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

As far as opinions go, I don't believe anyone is reading far enough into my explanations for the things I believe. They take it at face value, ignore the reasoning, and either applaud or attack as required. That seems to be the way web interaction is wired...

Your main problem with piracy is that the assumption you base your opinions on are false. You need to get over this idea that a free download is a lost sale. After that, everything else makes sense. Embrace the new world order, there's nothing to worry about

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by ApK

There's nothing inherently immature about choosing to support or not support an author, or anyone, based on what he stands for.
I learned from MLK we should judge a man by the content of his character, not just by his ability to spin an entertaining yarn.

To my way of thinking, the immaturity is in being so closed minded that one never finds out about the person's character. It would be pretty hard to know whether Ron Paul's politics are right or wrong if all you measured it by was Ron Paul's politics.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

No, I haven't tried that recently. I did include their editors in news releases I sent out, and never heard a peep out of them, so I thought they had no interest in me either. I can look into them again, though.

News release? I thought you submitted manuscripts to magazine editors.

[Penforhire]

Elfwreck, fingerprint sensing technology is indeed mature enough to be easy and reliable. Not many here seem to be using any of the latest business class laptops from HP or Lenovo. I've said it before - the EliteBook I use at work has a masterful stripe-type fingerprint scanner that never fails to recognize me. It is also batting 1,000 at not accepting other peoples' fingerprints. We keep checking because it amuses us. If you look at the lastest Lenovo X-series you can see how the technology fits even the smallest laptops as well.

Now I'll agree that the security of such a device is only as strong as the encryption of the biometric file. But it sure is convenient and effective against non-hackers (and what, today, is effective against a skilled hacker anyway?).

[carld]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

Your main problem with piracy is that the assumption you base your opinions on are false. You need to get over this idea that a free download is a lost sale. After that, everything else makes sense. Embrace the new world order, there's nothing to worry about

A free download from a willing provider is not a lost sale, it's a gift from author to reader. A stolen ebook is something else entirely.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by ApK

If THAT is your reasoning, it seems pretty darned closed minded.
If nothing else, you have no idea if any of that ideology shows itself in his fiction.

A person whose ideologies don't show in their fiction is schizophrenic.

That doesn't mean the characters share the ideologies, or that the stories are built around those ideologies. It doesn't mean there's no acknowledgment of other ideologies in the stories. Doesn't mean the ideologies a reader objects to, are pushed front-and-center and overwhelm any other message, and most readers can deal with a few authors' ideas they disagree with in the middle of an otherwise pleasant stories. (I notice--and tolerate--a great deal of monotheism in fiction that would say it's not promoting any religious ideologies.)

I don't mind reading fic by authors who have some beliefs I strongly disagree with, but there are some ideologies that are either prone to infecting the stories so much I find the result unreadable--or that I am so firmly against that, once I know an author thinks that way, I refuse to support their career by buying or even reading their books.

For example: It's possible I wouldn't have decided the rampant homophobia and sex-negativity in Card's works were too extreme just based on blog reviewers. Fortunately, Card spoke up and clarified that yes, he really does think some of my friends' marriages are so dangerous to the country that people should push for violent revolution to stop them. In which case, dude doesn't get my money or my time.

I don't think Steven's ideologies are anywhere near that kind of objectionable. I disagree with him on a few points about technology & the ethics thereof, but I get the impression that he's not dogmatic about it--the fact that he releases his ebooks without DRM, while speaking in favor of it, says that he knows how to temper his ideologies with market influence. I expect that means he could also change them if he meets a compelling argument that addresses his concerns.

I don't require that he find that argument before I'll buy his books; it's enough for me to know that the flexibility exists. I expect that flexibility, as well, to appear in his stories.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by rhadin

To my way of thinking, the immaturity is in being so closed minded that one never finds out about the person's character. It would be pretty hard to know whether Ron Paul's politics are right or wrong if all you measured it by was Ron Paul's politics.

If someone takes a public stance in favor of, say, drowning kittens, and I, for whatever reason, happen to be passionately against drowning kittens, would it be immature of me to choose not to patronize that someone? What else do I need to know about him?

But, on a related tack, I agree with you that I will probably have a more informed and considered opinion on my kitten-drowning stance if I'm willing read stuff, even fiction, that presents, or reflects, a world-view with a different kitten-drowning stance than my own.

ApK

[carld]

Originally Posted by rhadin

To my way of thinking, the immaturity is in being so closed minded that one never finds out about the person's character. It would be pretty hard to know whether Ron Paul's politics are right or wrong if all you measured it by was Ron Paul's politics.

Why would I care about anything except Ron Paul's politics when I'm judging the rightness or wrongness of those politics? I don't care how nice a guy he is, or whether or not he goes to church on Sunday, or volunteers at the puppy shelter. When I'm judging his politics then I judge the politics, judging anything else makes no sense to me.

Edit: Adding, I wouldn't support someone whom I disagree with just because I think they're a nice guy, but I would oppose someone that I agree with if I thought they were a terrible person. That sounds kind of schizophrenic but it makes sense in my head.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by rhadin

More importantly, I can't figure out why you asked for opinions only to attack the opinion givers.

Agree 100 percent.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Penforhire

Elfwreck, fingerprint sensing technology is indeed mature enough to be easy and reliable. Not many here seem to be using any of the latest business class laptops from HP or Lenovo. I've said it before - the EliteBook I use at work has a masterful stripe-type fingerprint scanner that never fails to recognize me. It is also batting 1,000 at not accepting other peoples' fingerprints. We keep checking because it amuses us. If you look at the lastest Lenovo X-series you can see how the technology fits even the smallest laptops as well.

I read under conditions I'd never expose a laptop to. Will it recognize fingerprints while inside a ziploc to keep it safe from rain or read in the tub? Will it work with the shaking hands of someone who can't turn pages of a paper book without tearing them? Will it work with an alternate (password, I suppose?) for someone who's injured their hands? What keeps the scanner clear--can I safely read it & eat, or will oils cause problems for it? How secure is the scanner software--can it be deleted by accident, or will a firmware update require new verification? If I authorize my 12-year-old daughter, will her scan still work in four years?

Also: Steve was advocating a scanner requirement for each ebook, not just for the device. Not, "you are the authorized owner of this ebook reader; now you can read anything on it," but "you must confirm your fingerprint before reading this ebook." That's an additional chance for digital corruption for each ebook. It also means no reading with gloves on in the winter. And, of course, no converting your books to a format readable on a device that doesn't have the scanner.

Some of that's a stretch, but the point is--fingerprint scanners for ebooks could be a minor issue for most uses, like DRM is now, but it'd be a stumbling block for some and a device-killer for a few people.

The tech, however, is debatable. Maybe a single authorization would unlock all books on that device keyed to that fingerprint, for 24 hours. Maybe it only gets done once per book, like the old ereader credit-card authorization. (For that, you need a scanner at buying time and another, identical scanning device, at your reader.) Shrug. I expect it not to happen because coordinating the tech would cost money that nobody wants to spend right now.

The ideological issue of, "of course it's okay to demand a fingerprint--which can be used to legally identify you--so you can use what you've bought" is a different matter entirely, and doesn't change when the tech details do.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

A person whose ideologies don't show in their fiction is schizophrenic.

First of all, it's not like schizophrenia is a rare condition among highly regarded artists.

Second, I disagree. OK, maybe a skilled psychoanalyst will always see the authors ideology through the fiction no matter what, but I think a good author, like a good actor, can speak with a totally different voice if he chooses to, and make it convincing to even the most critical readers.

But I will concede that that's USUALLY not what happens. I think most often, by design, we WANT our selves to show in our fictional worlds, as you say.
And, like rhadin, I think it's closed minded to echew all worlds built on differing views outright.

Not to say I haven't tossed out novels where the author tried to beat me over the head with a world where 'everything is wonderful because everyone has legal drugs and the cops all threw away their guns' before finishing them. I have.

ApK

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by ApK

If THAT is your reasoning, it seems pretty darned closed minded.
If nothing else, you have no idea if any of that ideology shows itself in his fiction.

Doesn't matter. We're all allowed to make idiosyncratic choices about our reading for pleasure. If I think some author is a jerk and decide not to buy his or her books, that's my business.