There's a better way to beat the ebook pirates

[Piper_]

Originally Posted by boxcorner

Quite. You could argue that's why books became so popular.

Yes.

And for all the complaints about how the Internet has made it hard to control who gets a copy of an ebook, how many authors owe their ebook sales to the existence of the Internet?

[sabredog]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

Do authors and publishers really care about that type of sharing? Real books have been shared like that for hundreds of years without anyone having a fit about it.

Too right.

My father and I regularly share dead tree books as we do share interest in several authors.

I read a lot of SF books over the years with a mate simply passing a pile of books over to each other that we thought we would find interesting. We read the respective piles and give them back.

No income for several authors there and no different to buying those books at book exchanges.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

Quiting is for losers.

Exactly. I've been fighting a losing battle, so I give up. I'm a loser. On the other hand, I was raised to be able to recognize a fruitless cause.

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

Once you quit I can tell you what your results are: $0.00

Considering my current losses have been in the negative hundreds each year (not counting the value of my time spent actually writing... we'll put that at a few thousand), moving my results to $0.00 would be an improvement.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

So that just leaves the freeloaders, people who download as an alternative to paying for stuff. Poverty is the main motivation for those people,

No it's not. No more than poverty is the main motivation for millionaires who dodge their taxes.

I disagree with Stonetools about the 'multi-format incompatibility assumption', though.

Even back in the days of 8-tracks and vinyl, we dubbed to cassette for use in our other car and courts upheld this as reasonable.
We weren't allowed to give out the cassettes to all our friends, even though there was no technological means in place to prevent us from doing so. Like with just about every other crime in free society, we were simply expected to obey the law.
We've advanced technology for the reason of making access to the IP we have rights to easier and more convenient, not to maintain limitations from decades past.
We don't want new technology to make things harder for us.
Seems reasonable.
Sadly, from the attitudes towards piracy and contempt for the rule of law expressed by some here, it's also reasonable that the industry feels it can't trust us.

ApK

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by GreenMonkey

As far as Mr. Jordan, I'm sorry people aren't paying for your book. Would you be so angry if those 100 people or whatever were reading your book at the library for free?

Of course not. That is what libraries are for. I have different opinions about the long-term viability of libraries, but that's clearly for another thread.

[sabredog]

Originally Posted by ApK

.
Sadly, from the attitudes towards piracy and contempt for the rule of law expressed by some here, it's also reasonable that the industry feels it can't trust us.K

Yet they do NOTHING to attract more customers.

Remove geographic restrictions, DRM and abolish agency pricing and for many, the need to look "elsewhere" for ebooks they are prevented from buying, will evaporate.

The worst enemy of the publishers ARE the publishers.

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by sabredog

Remove geographic restrictions, DRM and abolish agency pricing and for many, the need to look "elsewhere" for ebooks they are prevented from buying, will evaporate.

People don't have a right to read everything that gets published. Rights holders are free to restrict who they allow to read their titles. Those shut out should accept that fact and move on to something they are allowed to read.

[sabredog]

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

People don't have a right to read everything that gets published. Rights holders are free to restrict who they allow to read their titles. Those shut out should accept that fact and move on to something they are allowed to read.

That is remarkably narrow minded, even arrogant.

Little wonder faced with that attitude that many ebook readers, often caught mid series by sudden imposition of GR, try desperately to buy the remainder of the series and giving up in utter frustration, look at other means which have become more attractive.

I have just as much right as the next person to be able to purchase an electronic version of a book available in physical form.

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by sabredog

That is remarkably narrow minded, even arrogant.

I have just as much right as the next person to access a paid for electronic version of a book available in physical form.

Only if you're given permission to do so. Remember, it's their property; not yours.

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by sabredog

Little wonder faced with that attitude that many ebook readers, often caught mid series by sudden imposition of GR, try desperately to buy the remainder of the series and giving up in utter frustration, look at other means which have become more attractive.

Such is life and still, no justification to use less than legal means to procure said titles.

If you don't like the current rules in place, then boycott those responsible. Hurt them where it matters most - the bottom line.

[Worldwalker]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

Exactly. I've been fighting a losing battle, so I give up. I'm a loser. On the other hand, I was raised to be able to recognize a fruitless cause.

Just so I'm clear on what I'm actually arguing here (thanks to a certain person muddying the waters, I'm losing track of who said what), am I correct in understanding that you believe these losses are due to piracy? That is, if ebook piracy did not exist, you would be making substantially more money?

Considering my current losses have been in the negative hundreds each year (not counting the value of my time spent actually writing... we'll put that at a few thousand), moving my results to $0.00 would be an improvement

This is a very intrusive question, and I apologize in advance (feel free to slap me if you don't want to answer) but I'm going to ask anyway: For clearer discussion (and perhaps even a solution that works for you, though no promises) how many sales, roughly, have you had in the past year, how much profit per sale, and what have your expenses been, by category and approximate amount? I'm not asking for something that would satisfy the taxman, just a rough estimate of where the money came from and went to. As I said, I know I'm being downright intrusive asking, but the answers would bring some clarity to this discussion, and give everyone here (including me) some real numbers to work with, rather than vague guesses and analogies.

[Cyberman tM]

Originally Posted by ApK

Even back in the days of 8-tracks and vinyl, we dubbed to cassette for use in our other car and courts upheld this as reasonable.
We weren't allowed to give out the cassettes to all our friends, even though there was no technological means in place to prevent us from doing so.

Depending on where you live this is not entirely true.
Many(I think?) countries have a special "tax" on new media (i.e. empty cassettes, CDs, hard discs, etc...) to reimburse artists for losses because of private copies.

The number of private copies isn't specified, and this is going to vary from country to country - but I think at least in Austria it would be possible to distribute a disc among a few friends.
(Wikipedia says the number 7 once came up in court. But only as upper limit and is apparently contended.)

So, in response to the "there was no technological means in place to prevent us" - this is true, of course.
But instead they simply targetted everyone (as usual I might add) and declared everone a pirate and now get money irrelevant of what you do with the medium.

[edit]Again, remember this varies locally. Perhaps where you live you don't have to pay additional fees.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Piper_

Just as simply done, but not even close to as casually or widely, which you said was the problem that made DRM necessary.

Throughout your thread, you said passing a copy to family members or close friends wasn't the problem. You kept insisting that the need for DRM was to protect against "Large Scale Casual Sharing," wherein the books were casually passed on, via Facebook etc, to dozens, who passed it on to dozens, and ultimately hundreds of people.

So we pointed out a method that would answer your problem without putting a burden on customers; just as was predicted, when you finally respond, it's only to dodge and weave to move the goalposts.

Not surprising, since so many publishers won't even permit a single two-week lending of an ebook in its lifetime.

Next thing we know, you'll be admitting that, beyond "large scale casual sharing," you don't even think I should be free to send my husband or sister one of my 6 allotted simultaneous copies. Or, well, I guess you just did:


You're still trying to use copyright to defend DRM that goes far beyond that and puts needless burden on customers.

I can legally send a copy to anyone as long as they use the same device and tell me their serial #. But I can't send it to my husband's or my own Sony without stripping it.

That's not because of copyright, but a restriction imposed by the DRM you defend.

Your position on this and people with different devices is so self-incriminating, I only want to thank you when you lay it out so openly to us. I just hope this puts an end to your accusing us of not offering any alternatives to DRM other than no protection at all.

Quoted for TRUTH!

[Giggleton]

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

Only if you're given permission to do so. Remember, it's their property; not yours.

Since we're just going around in circles anyway, property rights don't exist.

[sabredog]

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

Only if you're given permission to do so. Remember, it's their property; not yours.

Thus they lose a sale, actually probably many sales. Meanwhile a darknet torrent allows the self same ebook to be downloaded without cost.

Most of us would much rather pay an author for his work.

This is all about archaic business systems. DVD's and bluray still have regions. Little wonder movies are downloaded so often when the release lag between those regions is so long.

A better, more proactive digitally orientated business system is the way forward. It is a pity that these companies are so firmly entrenched in last centuries business practices.