There's a better way to beat the ebook pirates

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by NVash

First you said you were alerted by Google about a download link, now you know of a torrent? Im wondering where this torrent is, does it have any comments? Anyone say anything about it? Is it well seeded? Does it have a listing as to how many times its been downloaded? Or is it completely dead? Does it have any other books or are they all just you?

I get regular Google alerts about torrents and free download pages (the free download page is the most recent, I got that on Easter). I used to check the torrents when I found them; now, I just note, without documenting, their existence. The torrents encompass books by me and others, and the download links are sites that are filled with books that, I'm sure, are not authorized to be sold there for free, with individual pages per book.

Beyond that, I don't collect further data on them. It's not worth my time.

I don't try to quantify loss through piracy. To me, it's obvious that there is a loss, however many books it might be. The quantity isn't as important as the fact that consumers want me to believe that it is acceptable for me to be stolen from... whereas I doubt any of them allow themselves to be stolen from in like fashion.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

I'm sorry your book was pirated...but theft happens to us all. Someone climbed 3 stories to steal our bikes. Shoot, one of my customer’s cargo and employees were jacked by REAL pirates on boats with guns…if you think someone stealing your book is bad, wait till they try to steal YOU.

The existence of worse crimes does not mean that all lesser wrongs should be ignored, or, worse, encouraged.

I don't get the sense that Steve is lacking perspective on this.

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

The quantity isn't as important as the fact that consumers want me to believe that it is acceptable for me to be stolen from... whereas I doubt any of them allow themselves to be stolen from in like fashion.

I'm with you.
Of course many of them would (or, at least say they would) happily have their stuff shared around for free without being asked (and so, they argue, you should too). The thing is, they don't seem to understand that in saying it would be OK for them, they are making the choice, and it's then not stealing. They have the right to give their stuff away. They want to make that choice for themselves, but deny the choice to others by making for them.

[crich70]

I think part of the problem with piracy of ebooks is not just the DRM or the price, but often availability and accuracy of text as well. Sometimes a person wants to read books by author x on their ereader and finds that though he/she has written x many books that only a few are as yet ebooks and sometimes the publishers (from other threads I've read) don't appear to care about quality of the product when it goes to ebook format. The supply problem is something that each author (or their estate) has to resolve with the publisher, but the issue of quality should be on the minds of the publishers already. Most people if given the choice between an expensive error ridden 'official' copy and a darknet copy that's free of the errors are going to go with the darknet copy. You can hold a hardcover copy of a book in your hands and feel its weight and consider yourself to have gotten your moneysworth, but there is nothing to hold with an ebook file. The only weight is that of the reader itself so people expect it to be cheaper priced. Just basic psychology I think.

[stonetools]

Wow, just wow.
We have an author who posts that he is fed up of being ripped off by pirates ( despite jumping through all the right hoops)and has stopped writing as a result. Now you would think that the MR crowd would re-examine their assumptions about piracy (" It's all the fault of the EEEEEVUUL publishers! Besides, piracy never hurt anyone."). Instead, they attack the messenger.
"You're whining like a teenager"
"You didn't try hard enough"
"Suck it up, mister. Being ripped off like this is just the way of the world"
"Think it of it as free advertising"
"You should be glad that they thought you worthy of being torrented"
"How do you know, for ABSOLUTE CERTAIN, that you lost any sales? Isn't it POSSIBLE that you could have gained sales?" (Note the differing burdens of proof ).

Man, if the author had been a rape victim, you would have told him to lay back and enjoy it and to stop wearing that tight clothing!

I think we have to be realistic about these things : piracy (and I might add, large scale casual sharing) probably does hurt sales, especially of best selling books, and it WILL dissaude some authors from writing, MR dogma notwithstanding. When content providers feel that they are being ripped off, they'll just do some other activity where they WON'T be ripped off. Authors aren't our performing monkeys and aren't obligated to work "for love alone" because we like cheap or free.
Mr. Jordan has the right of it. Large scale piracy is flourishing because the governments can't as yet be bothered to move against it. If authors were oil companies, I can guarantee the government response to piracy would be a wee bit stronger
The government can crack down by going after the hubs (findable by Google, I'm told) , closing them down, and by handing out 15 to 20 year sentences to the owners. Do that a few dozen times, and slap some stiff fines on ISPs who knowingly enable these hubs-and piracy will decline to low levels. No need for a "police state".
I think technology will eventually solve the problem, if only because content providers and distributors are VERY focused on the problem of protecting IP rights for digital goods. If they don't, we'll end up with fewer content providers, as the case of Mr. Jordan suggests.

[stonetools]

Originally Posted by NVash

Would you believe I completely forgot about the title? Im so bent on trying to figure out how to help Mr. Jordan that I forgot about that. My apologies.

But it cant be done. There is no better way. Id say ask the music industry but its obvious they havent figured anything out right?

You want to help Mr. Jordan? Respect his IP rights and work to defend them. No further help needed (especially not bogus defenses of piracy in the guise of "advice")

[MrsJoseph]

Originally Posted by ApK

The existence of worse crimes does not mean that all lesser wrongs should be ignored, or, worse, encouraged.

I don't get the sense that Steve is lacking perspective on this.

I think his perspective is coming across as if he is the only person it happens to and it is a personal vendetta against him. I'm simply saying that theft happens. It's not right but it does happen.

The important part is what YOU do when the shit hits the fan. I could have never bought a bike again out of fear...

...my customer could never sail in that direction again...

...but that is letting someone else dictate YOUR actions.

I feel its rather dramatic to quit doing something that you love because people prove that theft has been around for ages. It happened, its wrong, now what?

I was raised that you get up, dust yourself off and try again. You don't quit. Quiting is for losers.


I can't speak for others on this thread but I can say this - Steven can try other avenues to advertise his work in order to create a larger income for himself . That is in his control. What Steven cannot do is control the entire human populace (which would be the only way to stop piracy).

Again, let me state: I'm not saying its ok to steal his work or that he has no reason to be upset by torrents. I AM saying it's silly to quit writing over it.

[stonetools]

The quantity isn't as important as the fact that consumers want me to believe that it is acceptable for me to be stolen from... whereas I doubt any of them allow themselves to be stolen from in like fashion.

Indeed. If consumers were ripped off the way content providers were, they would be screaming and yelling too. We are all quite strong enough to bear the losses of others( how Le Rouchefoucald would have enjoyed this forum!)

[ApK]

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

I think his perspective is coming across as if he is the only person it happens to and it is a personal vendetta against him. I'm simply saying that theft happens. It's not right but it does happen.

You can fold in the face of a wrong.
You can withstand the wrong and preserver.

...but you can also look for ways to right the wrong.

Your customer can choose never to sail in that direction. He could also sail in that direction with a band of mercenaries and some .50 cal machine guns.

Not that I'm encouraging that (but it is a story idea...).

I AM saying it's silly to quit writing over it.

I wouldn't say silly, but I do think it is the wrong decision.
Unless his books suck. I don't know, I haven't read them.
Anyone got the torrent file?

[boxcorner]

I can't quite put my finger on it, but there's definitely something missing from the e-book reading experience. Apart from proper editing, I think perhaps what is missing is added value. Many DVDs include extra information about the film, actors, how it was made, and so on. If all e-books contained lots of supplementary background information, perhaps a biography of the author, maybe an article by the author about why they wrote the book in a particular way, included sample versions of other e-books by the same author, trial versions of other books available from the publisher, quizzes or other competitions based on the book with free book prizes, etc. Purchasers of e-books could be offered a discount to buy the printed version. Maybe then their perceived value of the e-book version would be higher. Alternatively, include an e-version with each p-book - it might create more incentive to buy the p-book.

Anyway, the experience of reading e-books needs to be at least as good, if not better than the experience of reading a paper book. I realise that some people have stopped buying and reading paper books, they feel that e-books are more convenient, and so on, but many people who love books don't see the e-book as being a replacement, rather as supplement. So long as readers come away with an impression that the e-book versions are inferior to the printed versions then they will expect to pay less for them. Over pricing of e-books has created a lot of resentment and in my view this blatant profiteering increases the likelihood of piracy. Adding further irritations in the form of DRM and geo-restrictions only makes matters worse.

[MrsJoseph]

Originally Posted by ApK

You can fold in the face of a wrong.
You can withstand the wrong and preserver.

...but you can also look for ways to right the wrong.

I'm all for looking for ways to right the wrong. I don't think that the measures that Steven has put forth are sustainable but I agree that looking for ways to improve his situation is better than quiting.

Unless the joy of writing (or whatever is your passion) is gone, I never think that quiting is the answer.

My husband gets disappointed year after year with his business. He still works full time (plus the additional hours at home and THEN his business). Over the course of years (and he's been at this for more than 5 years) he's slowly noticed that his profit is increasing. The revenue he's bringing in is overcoming his expenditures. It happens. It's slow, but it happens. But only if you don't quit. Making money is HARD. If it were easy, everyone would do it.

Once you quit I can tell you what your results are: $0.00

Originally Posted by ApK

Your customer can choose never to sail in that direction. He could also sail in that direction with a band of mercenaries and some .50 cal machine guns.

Not that I'm encouraging that (but it is a story idea...).

Now THAT would be a great action story! I'm laughing so hard because I can see my customer standing on the prow with semi-auto shot gun and gun belt - surrounded by his minions and their machine guns - facing down pirates. Too funny! He'd do it, too. You should have heard him the day it happened! Blistered my ears off.

Originally Posted by ApK

Unless his books suck. I don't know, I haven't read them.
Anyone got the torrent file?

Never read any either...but I bought one for my mom. She enjoyed it a lot. Which goes back to...he'd just created a new customer for himself...my mother wants the rest of the books. But since he's no longer writing...I guess she doesn't matter.

[stonetools]

Originally Posted by boxcorner

I can't quite put my finger on it, but there's definitely something missing from the e-book reading experience. Apart from proper editing, I think perhaps what is missing is added value. Many DVDs include extra information about the film, actors, how it was made, and so on. If all e-books contained lots of supplementary background information, perhaps a biography of the author, maybe an article by the author about why they wrote the book in a particular way, included sample versions of other e-books by the same author, trial versions of other books available from the publisher, quizzes or other competitions based on the book with free book prizes, etc. Purchasers of e-books could be offered a discount to buy the printed version. Maybe then their perceived value of the e-book version would be higher. Alternatively, include an e-version with each p-book - it might create more incentive to buy the p-book.

Anyway, the experience of reading e-books needs to be at least as good, if not better than the experience of reading a paper book. I realise that some people have stopped buying and reading paper books, they feel that e-books are more convenient, and so on, but many people who love books don't see the e-book as being a replacement, rather as supplement. So long as readers come away with an impression that the e-book versions are inferior to the printed versions then they will expect to pay less for them. Over pricing of e-books has created a lot of resentment and in my view this blatant profiteering increases the likelihood of piracy. Adding further irritations in the form of DRM and geo-restrictions only makes matters worse.

I honestly don't think pirates give a damn WHAT publishers do to promote ebooks. They want the price of ebooks to be zero and will steal from the author if it is above zero. THE END.
Your suggestions bear merit, but you should understand THAT.

[boxcorner]

Originally Posted by stonetools

I honestly don't think pirates give a damn WHAT publishers do to promote ebooks. They want the price of ebooks to be zero and will steal from the author if it is above zero. THE END.
Your suggestions bear merit, but you should understand THAT.

I think there are two main different types of piracy, and feel it is important to differentiate between them. The type that I think you are referring to, is a bit like background noise or radiation - it will always be there, despite efforts to minimise it. Whereas the type of piracy that I am referring to, could - in my view at least - mostly be easily avoided, if publishers took the appropriate actions. Of course, there will always be losses from piracy - that's obvious - but publishers seem to be making matters worse for themselves by upsetting the people who they should be looking after, the very people who would very likely actually pay for their product, if only it was priced more reasonably, didn't include DRM and wasn't geo-restricted.

Addendum
Some people who buy e-books strip the DRM. I imagine they might be inclined to buy more e-books if they didn't have to undergo that inconvenience. Clearly publishers lose business whenever people choose to not buy e-books which include DRM. Presumably they believe that including DRM prevents greater losses as a result of piracy.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by boxcorner

... but publishers seem to be making matters worse for themselves by upsetting the people who they should be looking after, the very people who would very likely actually pay for their product, if only it was priced more reasonably, didn't include DRM and wasn't geo-restricted.

something like the digital music business, say?

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

Unfortunately, anyone who tries to defend their material is automatically labeled a Godless monster in the digital space.

I'll have a go at explaining why that is the case, but in order to understand it you are going to have to suspend your disbelief a bit and just take my word for a few things.

People put works by unknown creators on the internet because they think they deserve to be more widely known. Rightly or wrongly (and I'm not really interested in debating which of those it is), they believe they are helping the unknown creator by doing so. It's basically a way of saying hey look at this great creator I've discovered, I bet you'd like it too.

So when said unknown creator calls those people thieves, mind-rapists, income murderers or whatever, they get a bit upset about it. Hey, I'm helping this person become better known and look at the thanks I get. So they tell all their online friends what a jerk you are, their friends tell others, and eventually one of the pro-piracy news sites gets to hear about it and it goes global.

Once that happens every crazy on the internet wants to teach you a lesson.

[boxcorner]

Originally Posted by kennyc

something like the digital music business, say?

Go on, I'm listening.