There's a better way to beat the ebook pirates

[carld]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

Entertainment industry figures say that 10% of the population downloads unauthorised digital content. A survey on unauthorised downloader habits carried out by the Dutch governent a few weeks ago said that only 5% of downloaders were interested in ebooks.

But that still doesn't tell us how much damage piracy is doing to the ebook market. That's really the relevant number isn't it? How many ebooks aren't sold because they're downloaded instead?

[NVash]

Originally Posted by carld

But that still doesn't tell us how much damage piracy is doing to the ebook market. That's really the relevant number isn't it? How many ebooks aren't sold because they're downloaded instead?

Doubt they could tell that even if they wanted to.

[Quexos]

And you are defending a concept that is immoral and wrong. One of money in exchange of a product or service, whatever the consequences and no matter what.
In other words if a child cannot afford bread and water, he deserves to die of starvation because only he that can and will pay for a product or service deserves to have it. Corporations would be in heaven if everyone shared your vision of the world.

I know you will say my example is extreme and maybe it is, but it's a strong example to explain how it's not just a matter of a bad guy stealing from a good guy.

Originally Posted by carld

For all those words you're still rationalizing stealing an author's hard work and not paying for it.

[carld]

Originally Posted by Quexos

And you are defending a concept that is immoral and wrong. One of money in exchange of a product or service, whatever the consequences and no matter what.
In other words if a child cannot afford bread and water, he deserves to die of starvation because only he that can and will pay for a product or service deserves to have it. Corporation would be in heaven if everyone shared your vision of the world.

I know you will say my example is extreme and maybe it is, but it's a strong example to explain how it's not just a matter of a bad guy stealing from a good guy.

Your example isn't extreme it's ludicrous and offensive. How dare you suggest that I would rather a child die. How dare you.

Stealing an author's hard work is wrong. I've made that point to you repeatedly, why you keep dancing around it and ignoring that basic fact is beyond me. I have nothing further to say to you.

[Quexos]

I dare my friend because that is the truth behind the concept of the almighty dollar, money coming first and being the ultimate purpose and reason for creating, producing and offering services.
I dare because in some countries, if you can't afford a doctor they will let you die. You are not a person if you don't have money and so on. So yes I dare and again.

And I don't mean YOU rather a child dies, I mean the system you defend would and for all practical purposes, does !

Originally Posted by carld

Your example isn't extreme it's ludicrous and offensive. How dare you suggest that I would rather a child die. How dare you.

Stealing an author's hard work is wrong. I've made that point to you repeatedly, why you keep dancing around it and ignoring that basic fact is beyond me. I have nothing further to say to you.

[boxcorner]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

Entertainment industry figures say that 10% of the population downloads unauthorised digital content. A survey on unauthorised downloader habits carried out by the Dutch governent a few weeks ago said that only 5% of downloaders were interested in ebooks.

Piracy is not going to go away any time soon, clearly. When I was a kid, my father used to play home-made copies of commercial music on his reel-to-reel magnetic tape deck. When I was a teenager, I bought a radio-cassette player and used to record offshore pirate radio. Nowadays our kids copy digital media, plus download who knows what illegally. Yet, artists still record music, make films and so on. The music and movie industries have survived numerous technological changes, and whilst they might not be making the shed-loads of money they were used to, I expect they will survive for at least another generation. Meanwhile, book publishing - like the music and movie industries - is a business, and publishers wouldn't continue for long if they weren't making money, so I'm not going to lose any sleep over their crocodile tears.

[carld]

Originally Posted by Quexos

I dare my friend because that is the truth behind the concept of the almighty dollar, money coming first and being the ultimate purpose and reason for creating, producing and offering services.
I dare because in some countries, if you can't afford a doctor they will let you die. You are not a person if you don't have money and so on. So yes I dare and again.

And I don't mean YOU rather a child dies, I mean the system you defend would and for all practical purposes, does !

All of which is unfortunate, but which has nothing to do with taking an author's work and not paying for it. Ebooks aren't food, or medicine, they're entertainment. If you don't want to pay for entertainment then don't, but don't pretend you have a right to take someone else's work without paying for it. That is stealing, and that is wrong.

Edit: and with that I'm done with this conversation. I sympathize with Steven and understand his frustration. I've been arguing against this imagined right to steal other people's work for years on this forum, but it's getting tiring arguing against the same obstinate opinions over and over again.

[Greg Anos]

Folks, the market is dying. It has been for a number of years. Piracy is a part, but only a part. It's choking itself on durable product. Product that isn't going away.

There are billions of audio CD's out there, the vast majority still work. Same for DVD's. Same for Books. Why buy new when you can buy used? You're not just competing with the latest releases. You're competing with all the old releases from the last 20, 50, 100 years.

The Internet has made them all available. Piracy? No, long tail marketing. Search engines for book for sale. Look up a title at ABE.com No matter how obscure, you'll probably find it.

And that isn't going to go away, piracy or no piracy.

[Quexos]

We both made our points and I hear and understand yours
Please don't take offense where none is intended.
I have a ton of CD's and printed books purchased new in my shelves so even if philosophically I don't agree with you, from a practical point of view I am part of the system too and I spend my Euros just as you do your currency.

Originally Posted by carld

All of which is unfortunate, but which has nothing to do with taking an author's work and not paying for it. Ebooks aren't food, or medicine, they're entertainment. If you don't want to pay for entertainment then don't, but don't pretend you have a right to take someone else's work without paying for it. That is stealing, and that is wrong.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by Anke Wehner

Eh. "Pirates" aren't a hive mind, or monolithic, or whatever of the kind.

It's been said repeatedly already, but let me try another spin of the phrasing:
The people who pirate on principle, publishers and authors don't lose money on, because they would not buy the books in the first place.

Lost sales include cases of "I wanted to buy this, but wasn't allowed to due to georestrictions", or "I'd like to buy that book, but I don't buy anything with DRM on principle", or "I don't buy any ebook costing more than X". Some of those people may turn to piracy to read the book, rather than neither buying nor reading it.

There is a third type, who look at free reads (whether authorised or not) as an ideal way to try out a writer they are not familiar with. Pre-internet they would have done the same thing at their local library or picked up a remaindered book, or a second hand one.

If they like what they read they will look for other things by that writer, and eventually they will start buying them new as soon as they are released because they don't want to have to wait.

I don't know what the percentages are, but those are the only type of downloader that really matters.

[Hellmark]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

There is a third type, who look at free reads (whether authorised or not) as an ideal way to try out a writer they are not familiar with. Pre-internet they would have done the same thing at their local library or picked up a remaindered book, or a second hand one.

If they like what they read they will look for other things by that writer, and eventually they will start buying them new as soon as they are released because they don't want to have to wait.

I don't know what the percentages are, but those are the only type of downloader that really matters.

I have to admit, I have pirated things before to test the waters of something. I have spent literally hundreds of dollars worth of music, that I would not have even heard of the bands, let alone heard their music, if piracy wasn't an option. Did I always buy what I downloaded? No, but the stuff I didn't, was the stuff I deleted and never used again. You can argue that isn't any better, since I still didn't pay for the things I didn't like, but if I could have sampled it any other way, I would have. Now, with the Amazon MP3 store, and iTunes, I can hear samples, so I haven't pirated music in a long time, but at the time, it wasn't possible to hear before you bought, if it was not played on the radio. On eBooks, I can see samples, and get an idea of stuff before I buy, even if it requires me driving to a book store and looking at a paper copy. Now that georestrictions are more common, I just have to hope I am allowed to purchase something.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

You guys are digging way too deep into this. It's simple: I write to make money, and I'm not making any money... in fact, I'm losing money by the shovelful. Writing was a failed experiment in making a second income. So, I'm gonna stop.

.

If you wrote to make money, I think you chose the wrong genre. You should have looked at whatever the latest craze was in fiction (sparkly vampires, zombies, wizards, etc) and written something to cash in on that craze. Ebooks are perfect for that purpose because they can be up for sale literally within minutes of typing "The End".

[ApK]

Originally Posted by Quexos

And I don't mean YOU rather a child dies, I mean the system you defend would and for all practical purposes, does !

No, it doesn't. Only your twisted rationalization for violating our rules does.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by OtterBooks

I prefer to buy my books. However, I'm not entirely un-savvy as per where to look, and I could not find them. No doubt they could be found, but apparently it would take someone more resourceful.

I'm more resourceful, but I couldn't find them either. I'm wondering if these Google Alerts he's getting aren't really just things like this:

http://www.queentorrent.com/search.p...&Search=Search

That's not a real pirate site, BTW, it's just a sucker site for generating clickthrough revenue. It wouldn't matter what you were searching for it would be there. Look, they even have mr ploppy ebooks, the robbing gets!

http://www.queentorrent.com/search.p...&Search=Search

[ApK]

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

I agree.

But it does not follow that quiting is the answer, either.

No, that would be purely his personal choice.

But interestingly, that choice represents the stated reason for copyright protections: Without the protections, fewer writers may be able to afford to spend time writing stuff worth reading.
Convincing people that the protections should be ignored is worse than not having them at all. Argue that the protections should be reformed to better serve the public interest, and I'll listen.