US Border agents can seize electronic devices without much reason

[FF2]

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

There's a deeper issue here. They'll probably won't do a lot if you have a pirated copy of a book. But in the mean time you don't have access to your property, which can cause you distress. It could contain sensitive data, or data you need the next day (because of that meeting which caused you to travel across the border).

I get the feeling (as an outsider) that the US is more and more the country of a paranoid government who, despite their words, think that everybody is guilty unless proven innocent.

Your first paragraph covers it pretty well. They can seize and search anything including private business documents, your love letters, Obama's secret birth certificate (oh, wait, that's supposedly fiction), anything while they have your device. It could be your cell phone - it is open ended. They take and ship it off to forensics. You get it back when they are finished.

I won't address your second point.

As someone mentioned, no lipping off to them. I recall coming back from a ski trip, two of us in the car. Customs guy on re-entry. There are two of you and THREE pairs of skis - how come? It was hard not to point out his failing eyesight - there were 4 pairs of skis. We just said they were different types of skis.

[Iphinome]

Originally Posted by Mortis

I have always found the US customs to be fairly friendly. I have never had them confiscate anything or really rip apart anything. Only when traveling by car do they get a little weird

A little weird? Crossing from Ontario into New York they detained me and questioned me for 40 mins, it wasn't until I got pissed off and started swearing at them that they let me enter my own country. Its like if you're entering by land they only let in the stereotypical ugly American. Flying in its glance at my passport and wave me through.

[Stitchawl]

Originally Posted by carpetmojo

No licence of any sort ? You can walk down the road with gun showing , like in a holster ?

Crumbs...............

In the US there are Federal Gun Laws, State Gun Laws, and Municipal Gun Laws, and the laws vary greatly. In the state of Vermont you can legally carry a concealed and loaded firearm anywhere except inside a "Federal Building" without any sort of license or permit needed.

At the other end of the spectrum, New York City requires two different permits just to own a pistol, with a third needed to carry, and a fourth needed to carry concealed.

While many State laws permit carry of a firearm, most Municipal laws make many stipulations covering who, where, and why, for carry inside city limits, such as the weapon must be unloaded.

There is no location anywhere in the US that permits the carry of a loaded rifle inside a moving vehicle.

The US Constitution does provide for the right of a citizen militia to bear arms. This has nothing whatsoever to do with walking down the street on a Saturday night with a 9mm Glock tucked into your pants.


Stitchawl

[Stitchawl]

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

I get the feeling (as an outsider) that the US is more and more the country of a paranoid government who, despite their words, think that everybody is guilty unless proven innocent.

Unfortunately, this is true. And the situation is getting worse every day. Once we were protected by the Constitution from 'illegal search and seizure.' No longer. Once we were protected by the Constitution with 'due process.' That doesn't exist any longer... if decided that the situation 'may be' a national threat. This mean that people can... and have been... arrested and detained for months without access to legal representation, in fact without ever even knowing why they were detained.
It's called the "Patriot Act" and it took away most of the Constitutional guaranteed rights we had under the Bill of Rights. They simply do not exist any longer as 'guaranteed rights.' If a representative of the government, be that a policeman, a postal worker, or even a TSA line checker without any education, decides that someone 'may be' a threat, they are guilty until proven innocent.

Stitchawl

[thrawn_aj]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

I'm not saying it's puppies and chocolate. Like I said, there are definitely some privacy issues. I'm only saying that rampant paranoia, exemplified by posts like yours, really aren't warranted.

Customs doesn't give a damn about pirated ebooks. Child porn yes, counterfeit goods yes, illegal drugs yes. Harry Potter ebooks? Please.

I can't help it if you only read every 10th word and conclude "rampant paranoia". I explained exactly how this could be abused and how easy it would be.

Also, I agreed that customs might not give a damn about pirated ebooks or music or movies. However, they have the power to make unethically (but not illegally - that's the point of this story) obtained "evidence" available to those who would care - the holy trinity of the copyright mafia . Why wouldn't customs agencies, especially upon failing to find something criminally incriminating after spending all those man-hours playing Nancy Drew, not sell that ill-gotten information to those who might be able to make a civil case out of it? They already sell all those items confiscated for security concerns. Why not sell banned information as well?

So, I'm just saying that those are all eminently possible and considering how the copyright lobby literally writes legislation these days, more than probable. And uninformed and flippant dismissals of these concerns, exemplified by a post like yours, in a thread dealing exclusively with the issue, really isn't warranted.

Originally Posted by SameOldStory

"Officer, you don't need me to give you the passwords to my computer files. Honest, they're just me personal files."

These aren't the files you're looking for.

[Kali Yuga]

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

....in the mean time you don't have access to your property, which can cause you distress. It could contain sensitive data, or data you need the next day (because of that meeting which caused you to travel across the border).

If you're traveling across international borders and only have one copy of your data, and no backups, you're already SOL. You just don't know it yet.

[Kali Yuga]

Originally Posted by thrawn_aj

I can't help it if you only read every 10th word and conclude "rampant paranoia". I explained exactly how this could be abused and how easy it would be.

Don't bother.

Customs agents are not going to give the slightest damn about a bunch of pirated ebooks. They probably wouldn't know one if it jumped out of your device and bit them on the nose.

Copyright lawsuits are civil proceedings. If you get sued for some reason for alleged piracy, they're just going to subpoena the contents of your hard drive anyway.

It is ridiculous to imagine that Customs is going to index the entire contents of your hard drive, unless they find something genuinely actionable on it. They do not have the time or resources to gather data for use in civil lawsuits.

Originally Posted by thrawn_aj

Why wouldn't customs agencies, especially upon failing to find something criminally incriminating after spending all those man-hours playing Nancy Drew, not sell that ill-gotten information to those who might be able to make a civil case out of it?

Egads.

- Governments don't sell evidence.
- It's far too expensive for them to gather, store and transmit such data, let alone run a search for what is legit and what is not, to make this idea anything other than utterly laughable.
- Customs agents don't decide to nail someone because they spent time interviewing them. They're trying to nail drug mules, counterfeiters and the exceedingly rare child pornography carrier.

Again, there are legitimate concerns about Customs searches. This is not one of them; this will never be one of them.

What next? Is the NYPD going to search your smartphone for illegitimate copies of "Angry Birds" on their next round of stop & frisks?

I recommend that instead of floating such irrationally paranoid fantasies, you focus on the actual and legitimate privacy concerns involved in border searches.

[Stitchawl]

Originally Posted by Stitchawl

There is no location anywhere in the US that permits the carry of a loaded rifle inside a moving vehicle.
Stitchawl

I need to edit this...

Several states do have a handicapped access program that does allow them to fire a rifle from inside a vehicle. But there are obviously a few conditions that have to be met, such as season, time of day, target of choice, and of course, legally unable to move around without a vehicle of some sort.


Stitchawl

[Mortis]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

It is ridiculous to imagine that Customs is going to index the entire contents of your hard drive, unless they find something genuinely actionable on it. They do not have the time or resources to gather data for use in civil lawsuits.

Canadian customs has in the past and does confiscate laptops that they believe contain illegal or incriminating evidence. I have had my personal computer searched returning to Canada more than once and I pass through the "Quick" lane when returning. I don't know the laws in the US, but Canadian Customs and Immigration have sweeping powers of arrest and have always had them. Canadian Customs makes the US guys look like crossing guards when it comes to the right afforded them.


Stitchawl : If I remember right, but could be misremembering, isn't Texas the only State that allows a loaded firearm in a vehicle and open alcohol as long as the driver isn't drinking?

It sounds so stupid when I type it out, it can't be right.

[Mortis]

double post

[CommonReader]

Traveling to the US was a PITA even prior to 9/11 and it clearly went from bad to worse. I do not travel privately to the US anymore, as I don't see why I should spend my money somewhere where I am being welcomed as if I were a criminal. That's a pity as I always enjoyed traveling in the US. Americans should be subjected to the same kind of treatment whenever they want to enter the Schengen Area - and that courtesy should be extended to US soldiers.
Obviously no one in his right mind will cross the border to the US (or to most other countries) with a notebook or any other device that contains confidential business data, as there is the realistic chance that this data will be seized and even be used for the purpose of industrial espionage.

[SameOldStory]

Many people idealize police men.

Over the years I've come to believe that there are a few that are well deserving of that belief. A great many more are just doing their job as best as they can. And, as an outsider who has done a fair amount of work inside police stations, I've met many who really shouldn't even be lobby guards behind a desk.

This story points out the folly of all people. But I'm wonder what the police put the owner of this property through.

Texas cops mistake actual weed for marijuana, spend hours doing yard work

Least you thing it's a joke;
Marijuana Seizure Turns Into Yardwork

Horsemint leaf

[SameOldStory]

Originally Posted by CommonReader

Traveling to the US was a PITA even prior to 9/11 and it clearly went from bad to worse. I do not travel privately to the US anymore, as I don't see why I should spend my money somewhere where I am being welcomed as if I were a criminal. That's a pity as I always enjoyed traveling in the US. Americans should be subjected to the same kind of treatment whenever they want to enter the Schengen Area - and that courtesy should be extended to US soldiers.
Obviously no one in his right mind will cross the border to the US (or to most other countries) with a notebook or any other device that contains confidential business data, as there is the realistic chance that this data will be seized and even be used for the purpose of industrial espionage.

You misunderstand us. You (all feriners (intentional misspelling, I assure you)) have no information that we want (That’s a joke). And as my previous post indicates, we may steal your illegal copy of the Tollhouse cookie recipe and bypass your "secret industrial information".

In other words, you give us too much credit.

After 911 we could have set up a top notch system like the Israelis. Instead we went with union hacks that are little more than warm bodies. Do I have to keep saying that we get what we deserve?

And for those few who are competent border inspectors and TSA, and I will admit that there are some VERY good ones, you keep bad company.

[Mortis]

Originally Posted by SameOldStory

Many people idealize police men.

Over the years I've come to believe that there are a few that are well deserving of that belief. A great many more are just doing their job as best as they can. And, as an outsider who has done a fair amount of work inside police stations, I've met many who really shouldn't even be lobby guards behind a desk.

I will have to disagree with you, I think the men and women that choose to be police officers are for the most part good people, and good at their jobs. A thankless crappy job that only someone thats either trying to help or is a complete tool would want, thankfully the tools are far and few between.

Over the years I have worked with countless officers, both city, county, provincial and federal, and all the men and women I worked with I never met one that was any different than the other people in other professions, except they are held to a different measure than other professions. There have been many cases of cops doing crappy things, but you never hear about the ones that do their jobs well, or are injured because so asshat decided that she really didn't mind her husband beating on her.

I'm sorry but police officers get the sh!ty end of the stick.

I don't know what your experiences have been with police officers, but if you felt that you were mistreated I assure you any police department would take that very seriously if you were to report it.

[Kali Yuga]

Originally Posted by Mortis

Canadian customs has in the past and does confiscate laptops that they believe contain illegal or incriminating evidence....

Yes, I have no doubt that if you act suspiciously at the border, Customs will take a nice thorough look at the contents of your hard drive. In the example given, the individual crossing the border was a registered sex offender, and they shipped off his hard drive for further analysis.

However, it's a far cry from checking a hard drive for child porn, to notifying three dozen copyright holders that an individual has a bunch of pirated ebooks.

Nor does it seem likely that they will all but make stuff up to pinch you on a minor offense, let alone a civil offense.

So again: Cause for concern, likely. Terror that some otherwise unavailable info will be shipped off and get you in hot water with Random House, rather silly.