Sorry Kindle, You're Not Invited

[GoSharks]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

But, since it isn't legal to do it, I doubt it's legal to say you can do it.

Quite possibly the most absurd thing said in this debate so far.....

[Lemurion]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

Do you think we need a simpler interface for stripping DRM? The simplest thing is to not allow DRM to exist.

While I dislike DRM on my own purchased works intensely, I don't have an issue with the idea of library DRM. DRM does provide tools for managing and tracking individual licenses - and as long as libraries continue to track eBooks similarly to paper books (we have x number of copies available and once they're all out the next person has to wait until someone returns one), they are going to need a way to manage those licenses.

I think letting them have DRM on those books is a reasonable trade-off for being able to read them for free.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

While I dislike DRM on my own purchased works intensely, I don't have an issue with the idea of library DRM. DRM does provide tools for managing and tracking individual licenses - and as long as libraries continue to track eBooks similarly to paper books (we have x number of copies available and once they're all out the next person has to wait until someone returns one), they are going to need a way to manage those licenses.

I think letting them have DRM on those books is a reasonable trade-off for being able to read them for free.

And yet they manage a large part of their digital lending, like mp3s, in the same way just fine with no drm at all. Seems they don't really need to hamstring users to accomplishing those goals.

[Giggleton]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

While I dislike DRM on my own purchased works intensely, I don't have an issue with the idea of library DRM. DRM does provide tools for managing and tracking individual licenses - and as long as libraries continue to track eBooks similarly to paper books (we have x number of copies available and once they're all out the next person has to wait until someone returns one), they are going to need a way to manage those licenses.

I think letting them have DRM on those books is a reasonable trade-off for being able to read them for free.

But we aren't reading them for free, every checkout will be bought and paid for. Tracking is a nice feature, but the idea of limited copies in the digital space is absurd.

HC wants the taxpayer to pay for a book license upon download or slightly before, this is absurd as well. I and many others check out multiple library books and then only read a few of those before sending them back. This use does not align with prepayment of book licenses. Something must be done and so it shall be done.

[wvcherrybomb]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

Do you think we need a simpler interface for stripping DRM?

I hope this isn't a serious question.

The only possible way it could be more simple is if someone came to your house and did it for you.

Interestingly, most people on this forum admit to stripping DRM the moment an infected book hits their hard drive. The reason given is to ensure said book will be readable by any future hardware they may own. BUT ... any actual mention of converting a book gets everyones panties all in a knot. "OMG Horrors! You want me to do what? Convert an epub to a mobi? But I have ETHICS!!!"

This whole thing is really a non-issue. Even if you don't *gasp* delete the libary book by the due date the world is not going to come to an end. The next person on the list still gets the book. The only way this scenario would hurt anyone is if the borrower decided to pass out the book on the darknet. Oh, wait ... if a person is using the darknet they wouldn't need to bother with the library!!

[MrsJoseph]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

Do you think we need a simpler interface for stripping DRM? The simplest thing is to not allow DRM to exist.

Considering it is illegal to create DRM stripping tools, I think that DRM stripping interface will be complicated until it becomes mainstream. As if that will ever happen.

Of course it would be simpler not to have DRM...but that is not the case so I don't consider that option.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

Of course it would be simpler not to have DRM...but that is not the case so I don't consider that option.

It's an option if consumers force it, and we DO have that power.

Another option is to develop a totally non-intrusive DRM scheme, but so little really value is gained from DRM it hardly seems worth the effort.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by wvcherrybomb

The only way this scenario would hurt anyone is if the borrower decided to pass out the book on the darknet. Oh, wait ... if a person is using the darknet they wouldn't need to bother with the library!!

I'm a believer in the rule of law and I believe society is damaged when people ignore laws.

That being said, I also believe in civil disobedience when needed.

In between I see a few ethical gray areas and I think the current state of stripping DRM for facilitating the access to which you are entitled falls there.
I'd prefer the laws were clarified to protect the reader.

[EDIT: This assumes for the sake of argument that it IS in fact illegal now. That 9th circuit court decision is certainly disturbing, but hardly conclusive).

[MrsJoseph]

Originally Posted by ApK

It's an option if consumers force it, and we DO have that power.

Another option is to develop a totally non-intrusive DRM scheme, but so little really value is gained from DRM it hardly seems worth the effort.

Yes, in the future...but I was thinking more on a "right here, right now" basis.

[khalleron]

Kindlekitten -

Putting asterisks around a word, like *this* or putting the word in bold is emphasis.

Typing in all caps is SHOUTING.

Since you don't seem to be aware of that, I'm now telling you.

So stop shouting now. You don't have an excuse anymore.

http://www.networketiquette.net/

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

once more with feeling;


you can read library books on the Kindle!!!!

Not really and not legally.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by khalleron

Once again, there's no need to shout.

Failure to observe ordinary netiquitte does not make your arguments more convincing.

Neither does repeating the same points over and over, no matter how many times they've been *factually* disputed.

Take-away lesson: don't get legal advice from strangers on the Internet.

This lawyer on the net has not said that stripping DRM from library books for the purpose of converting them so they can be used on a Kindle is legal.

So she's shouting that it is legal when even her lawyer has not said so and in fact, the Ninth District Court said it's not. So really, her arguing that it is legal is wrong.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

Do you think we need a simpler interface for stripping DRM? The simplest thing is to not allow DRM to exist.

Once you have obtained the key, the rest of stripping DRM is as easy as using Windows Explorer. But I agree, the best way is no DRM at all.

Originally Posted by GoSharks

Quite possibly the most absurd thing said in this debate so far.....

We have freedom of speech in the USA. But it isn't legal to go shouting FIRE in a crowded movie theater when there is no fire. Same difference. Just because you can do something that's illegal and you can talk about doesn't make talking about it legal.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by wvcherrybomb

I hope this isn't a serious question.

The only possible way it could be more simple is if someone came to your house and did it for you.

Interestingly, most people on this forum admit to stripping DRM the moment an infected book hits their hard drive. The reason given is to ensure said book will be readable by any future hardware they may own. BUT ... any actual mention of converting a book gets everyones panties all in a knot. "OMG Horrors! You want me to do what? Convert an epub to a mobi? But I have ETHICS!!!"

We are not saying it's OK to strip DRM, ut it's not OK to format shift. We are saying it's not OK to strip the DRM from library eBooks and convert. Content you have purchased is different. And that is a gray area. There is no gray area with library eBooks.

[GoSharks]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

We have freedom of speech in the USA. But it isn't legal to go shouting FIRE in a crowded movie theater when there is no fire. Same difference. Just because you can do something that's illegal and you can talk about doesn't make talking about it legal.

I was wrong, THIS is the most absurd thing said so far. Your analogy is beyond ludicrous... shouting Fire in a crowded theater is a public safety hazard, a statement that removing DRM is possible is informational discourse.

By the way, I capitalized a word in my post for emphasis...if I was shouting, I would have capitalized the entire post.