Sorry Kindle, You're Not Invited

[ApK]

Even a powerful company has to pick it's battles and manage finite resources. They're powerful, they are not omnipotent.

(I hope they don't strike me down for saying that.)

ApK
p.s. I'll flag myself here:

[bhartman36]

Originally Posted by covingtoncat73

Amazon wants to sell Kindles, not books. If they wanted to sell books, they would sell ePubs as well as Mobis. Same with B&N. They want to sell Nooks, not books. They may sell ePubs but, due to DRM, they only work on Nooks.

Amazon only wants to sell Kindles because Kindle users buy more books than non-Kindle users. (Actually, e-book reader users buy more books than non-e-book readers, but you get the idea, hopefully.) The Kindle is basically a kiosk to the Amazon bookstore.

Their strategy is evident from the different platforms the Kindle software runs on:

-- Android
-- iOS
-- Windows
-- WebOS (coming soon)

If they were only interested in selling Kindles, there wouldn't be this other software.

Also, if they were interested primarily in selling Kindles, they would've joined the "me too" crowd and released a Kindle with a color touchscreen. The reason they didn't do that is because the design they have right now (they believe) is more conducive to reading books than a color touchscreen would be. (Of course, whether it is better for reading is a debatable point, but that seems to be the decision they made.)

I think B&N is more interested in selling books than Nooks, but I think they went with the color touchscreen to differentiate themselves from Amazon's Kindle.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by jl_carter

that DRM circumvention is prohibited even if there is NO copyright violation.
[...]
In footnote 12 the Ninth Circuit "leave[s] open the question whether fair use might serve as an affirmative defense to a prima facie violation of § 1201"

For those of you who believed the distinction was owned vs. borrowed, I want to point out that if the former statement proves true and holds up, that suggests that even stripping your OWNED ebooks for backup would be illegal.
Write your legislators, folks. Quick. Ask for the same kind of protections other countries are putting into their DMCA-like laws.

ApK

[MrsJoseph]

I think the important part is not everyone can strip DRM from an ebook no matter how easy it was for them to locate MR. I told my mom about MR...she typed the address in character by painful character. Does this mean she can now strip DRM? No, not at all.

My mother has a Kobo - not a Kindle - because she wants to read library ebooks. There is NO WAY on God's green earth that I could teach her how to strip DRM from a library ebook without losing my mind. My mother can't even re-size her windows on her computer desktop and now you are encouraging her to strip DRM?? Do you have any clue how difficult it was to show her how to use the very basics of Calibre (drag, drop, plug & go). She calls me last night screaming "Why haven't the green check marks gone away?!!"

If you know how to strip DRM from your library books, that's great. But don't tell others that it is simple and easy. Not everyone has the same skill set. If it doesn't work out of the box, it doesn't work for everyone.

[Piper_]

Originally Posted by iandix

thankyou jl_carter and tubemonkey two very useful and informative posts. I think this should put an end to 90% of the debate on this thread... just one or two inflexible types might refuse to bend ..or might read only the bits they like :-) But as far as I am concerned these have put the nail in the coffin of this debate.

Which debate? There's been lots of debate over questions and positions besides whatever the courts have ruled.

We've got:

• Technical debate (Can I?)
• Legal debate (May I?)
• Ethical debate (Should I?)

Here are the basic questions, I think (My answers in italics.): (I won't include the option to use Kindle's PID to read a Mobipocket on a Kindle, which doesn't break DRM or the expiration function. I doubt anyone would say that's either illegal or unethical.)


Can I read epub-based library books on a Kindle?

1. Is it possible?
Yes, if you can convert the book to mobi.

2. How hard is that to do?
About as hard as setting up and using Adobe Digital Editions [ADE] and getting the library book to your device.

--To determine competence, suggest setting up ADE and Overdrive (needed to get the books) and if that's easy enough, trying out calibre (great to use even if you don't need to deDRM anything). Installing and using the deDRM plugins for it is easier.



May I read library books on a Kindle if I remove them by the given time period?

1. Is it legal?
It might be a civil violation under the DCMA. Suggest asking lawyer and/or personal librarian.

Spoiler:

(It would not surprise me if it is a violation, but pending a real read and preferably a legal interpretation of how the above [MDY v. Blizzard] case relates to this scenario, I don't know if it can be said for sure. At first glance, the case looks too different, e.g., WoW seemed to show it was disruptive to their business, costing them money, and I'm reminded of the warnings in this post as well as the judicial comments by that judge and the fair use question even in this case.

Not that I would ever expect it to be ruled to be legal for library use, not least because I don't think it would get to court. I don't mind either way, since my position is a matter of ethics, and I think it's more likely they'd just remove DRM and use the honor system, as they have already done with audiobooks.)

Should I?
Definitely not if you can't be trusted to delete the book yourself.

-- I say it is ethical if you delete it within the time it was given to you, some say it's not ethical even then.

So how should the frequently asked question of "Can i read library books on a Kindle" be answered?
Kindle can read mobipocket library books if you know how to get your Kindle's PID. Most library books are in epub format.

It can also read epub-based library books if you first run it through another program to remove the DRM and convert it to mobi. Try out ADE and calibre to see if you can handle the technical steps.
Ethically, you must delete the book manually when it expires, and understand removing the lock is legally questionable and you could be breaking the TOS with the library. If you know your librarian, consider asking for permission.

[Nyssa]

Very well put Piper!

[covingtoncat73]

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

I think the important part is not everyone can strip DRM from an ebook no matter how easy it was for them to locate MR. I told my mom about MR...she typed the address in character by painful character. Does this mean she can now strip DRM? No, not at all.

My mother has a Kobo - not a Kindle - because she wants to read library ebooks. There is NO WAY on God's green earth that I could teach her how to strip DRM from a library ebook without losing my mind. My mother can't even re-size her windows on her computer desktop and now you are encouraging her to strip DRM?? Do you have any clue how difficult it was to show her how to use the very basics of Calibre (drag, drop, plug & go). She calls me last night screaming "Why haven't the green check marks gone away?!!"

If you know how to strip DRM from your library books, that's great. But don't tell others that it is simple and easy. Not everyone has the same skill set. If it doesn't work out of the box, it doesn't work for everyone.

This is exactly what I was trying to get across with a previous post I made in this thread. I have a Kobo and love it. I have no problem using Calibre or getting eBooks from the library. I am pretty quick on a keyboard and used to the concept of using digital media on a device from years of iPod use and, yes, I have even used Audacity to make recordings for Librivox.

I would not strip DRM from a library book nor, with my Kobo, do I need to. However, I did do a little investigating (not much, it is true) into stripping DRM because there is a book I want that is only available on B&N or Amazon and it looks pretty darn complicated to me. So complicated, I'm just buying the book in paperback and thinking about adding a Kindle as a second eReader if this keeps happening. I mean, I have to sift through all those sites to find out which ones are legitimate because I even start to figure it out.

It has also caused me to boycott B&N completely. I am more bitter with them than Amazon because I knew what Amazon was going in. If I was to have a proprietary device or patronize a proprietary store, why on Earth would I go to the one with the second-best selection and prices? It is just too complicated and dubious for me. If a Kobo for the library books and a Kindle for bought books is the way to go, it is the way to go, and, since Kobos are $60 now, if you have a closing Borders near you, why not?

I'm really not as angry and bitter about it as that sounds, just a bit frustrated and disappointed.

[DiapDealer]

I did do a little investigating (not much, it is true) into stripping DRM because there is a book I want that is only available on B&N or Amazon and it looks pretty darn complicated to me.

This is a mistake many make. It looks complicated... it sounds complicated. But it's not. It used to be, yes. Of course, it may still be beyond some people's technical skills (I'm not denying it), but if you can manage to download/install Calibre, unzip a file, browse to a specific folder (with a standard GUI dialogue box), and click an OK button... then stripping the DRM from books is not above your pay-grade. Those requirements will certainly still leave some people out in the cold, but nobody will ever convince me that they represent a very significant portion of the ebook purchasing public.

[Piper_]

Thanks, Nyssa.

covingtoncat, things used to be more complicated. You had to install Python, run scripts, etc.

Now, if you can install and use calibre, the plugin is simple to download and from then on, it's all automatic and invisible.

I can understand your frustration with incompatible stores, though. We have a sony and a kindle, and expect someone to add a nook color soon. sigh lol

[kindlekitten]

ok, I am getting a little tired of some of the snide remarks and the finger pointing, so this is my *issue*:

a lot of people come here while in the decision making process thinking of themselves as being big time library users and that that is going to be an important issue in their decision making process. kindle bashers (you know who you are) are quick to point out; "you CANNOT!!!! (inferring it is impossible) read a library book on a Kindle." on top of that, many times; more times than I am able to count, in fact enough times that had I been paid a quarter every time it was asserted, I would have a brand new K3, the follow on claim is; "and the Kindle is PROPRIETARY! to Amazon!!!!" inferring that providers such as Baen and smashwords (and there are MORE) will not work on a Kindle. and that is not only WRONG, but a flat out LIE when iterated by anyone who has been around these forums with any regularity.

ok, so some people cannot go through all of the processes to strip DRM and get a book on their Kindle, but the majority of people that can get to MR on their own steam, find it through search engines, etc. (not have the link cut and pasted and fed to them), can most likely manage to strip the DRM and move a book onto their Kindle. this really becomes an issue because, as we have seen, there have been a number of people who thought that library use was an essential factor in their choice of an ereader, but went ahead and took the step of getting a Kindle have actually been really happy with it. especially when they have discovered the amount of free books available for Kindles as well as reduced price books.


so... at the end of the day... yes, I will continue to "pop into these threads" and shout out loud and long that it is first; FACTUALLY incorrect that library books (or others) cannot be read on Kindles, second; not federally ILLEGAL in the United States in April of 2011 to strip DRM off of books for PERSONAL USE and put them onto any device and read them (I suggest that many of you figure out the difference between using the words "legal" and "illegal" are), and third ETHICALLY is your own issue and not to be questioned by any other individual.

[JSWolf]

Where does it say that it is OK to make a photocopy of a library pBook for your own personal use? Who says I can borrow say the latest bestseller from the library and make a photocopy of it so I can keep it? I know you can photocopy some of it, but I have never read or heard of being able to photocopy an entire book for personal use.

And if it really is the case that I cannot photocopy the entire pBook, then I cannot keep the eBook as it would be just as wrong.

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

I'm not answering you until you find the multi-quote key and learn how to use it

Now we've found out that it's not legal to strip DRM from library eBooks. If the people doing the stripping of library eBook DRM delete all copies when by the time the loan is up, I don't see an issue even though it isn't legal. Morally, I'm OK with it. But, since it isn't legal to do it, I doubt it's legal to say you can do it.

[8annika.yael]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

once more with feeling;


you can read library books on the Kindle!!!!

whoa, whaaat?

[khalleron]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

ok, I am getting a little tired of some of the snide remarks and the finger pointing, so this is my *issue*:

a lot of people come here while in the decision making process thinking of themselves as being big time library users and that that is going to be an important issue in their decision making process. kindle bashers (you know who you are) are quick to point out; "you CANNOT!!!! (inferring it is impossible) read a library book on a Kindle." on top of that, many times; more times than I am able to count, in fact enough times that had I been paid a quarter every time it was asserted, I would have a brand new K3, the follow on claim is; "and the Kindle is PROPRIETARY! to Amazon!!!!" inferring that providers such as Baen and smashwords (and there are MORE) will not work on a Kindle. and that is not only WRONG, but a flat out LIE when iterated by anyone who has been around these forums with any regularity.

ok, so some people cannot go through all of the processes to strip DRM and get a book on their Kindle, but the majority of people that can get to MR on their own steam, find it through search engines, etc. (not have the link cut and pasted and fed to them), can most likely manage to strip the DRM and move a book onto their Kindle. this really becomes an issue because, as we have seen, there have been a number of people who thought that library use was an essential factor in their choice of an ereader, but went ahead and took the step of getting a Kindle have actually been really happy with it. especially when they have discovered the amount of free books available for Kindles as well as reduced price books.


so... at the end of the day... yes, I will continue to "pop into these threads" and shout out loud and long that it is first; FACTUALLY incorrect that library books (or others) cannot be read on Kindles, second; not federally ILLEGAL in the United States in April of 2011 to strip DRM off of books for PERSONAL USE and put them onto any device and read them (I suggest that many of you figure out the difference between using the words "legal" and "illegal" are), and third ETHICALLY is your own issue and not to be questioned by any other individual.

Once again, there's no need to shout.

Failure to observe ordinary netiquitte does not make your arguments more convincing.

Neither does repeating the same points over and over, no matter how many times they've been *factually* disputed.

Take-away lesson: don't get legal advice from strangers on the Internet.

[kindlekitten]

Originally Posted by khalleron

Once again, there's no need to shout.

Failure to observe ordinary netiquitte does not make your arguments more convincing.

Neither does repeating the same points over and over, no matter how many times they've been *factually* disputed.

Take-away lesson: don't get legal advice from strangers on the Internet.

I have not shouted, those were words used with emphasis. this is NOT legal advice. this is an educated observation.

[Giggleton]

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

My mother has a Kobo - not a Kindle - because she wants to read library ebooks. There is NO WAY on God's green earth that I could teach her how to strip DRM from a library ebook without losing my mind. My mother can't even re-size her windows on her computer desktop and now you are encouraging her to strip DRM?? Do you have any clue how difficult it was to show her how to use the very basics of Calibre (drag, drop, plug & go). She calls me last night screaming "Why haven't the green check marks gone away?!!"

If you know how to strip DRM from your library books, that's great. But don't tell others that it is simple and easy. Not everyone has the same skill set. If it doesn't work out of the box, it doesn't work for everyone.

Do you think we need a simpler interface for stripping DRM? The simplest thing is to not allow DRM to exist.