Why are DRM ebooks evil and why should I avoid them like the plague?

[stonetools]

f it ain't broke: don't fix it.

If it is broke: do fix it.

And your fix is........

[Lemurion]

Originally Posted by stonetools

And your fix is........

I don't know if there is any one specific fix that suits every situation.

Baen's fix has been to build a community connecting the publisher, authors and readers, and it certainly appears to have worked for them.

But then again, I'm the user, it's not my job to come up with the solution: I simply have to let the publishers know if their solution works for me.

When the car breaks down, it's not my job to figure out how to fix it. That's why I take it to the mechanic, who then offers various options and I take the one I like best.

But again: you're missing the big point. Why spend all these resources on DRM to prevent piracy when it doesn't prevent piracy?

[stonetools]

You keep spouting this same nonsense. And the answer is always the same, too--when "average user" buys a different device and come up against DRM, average user suddenly cares about it.

well, it may sound like nonsense, but it does have the virtue of truth. In the future, the average user is mostly going to have a device that can read all formats-a PSP, a tablet or a smart-phone. Indeed, one of the reasons to avoid dedicated ereaders will be precisely to avoid this issue.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by stonetools

I represent the long view and the unpopular truth.
A no DRM world won't be all sunshine and rainbows, contrary to the prevailing dogma here.
I think authors and publishers need to be assured that they will be paid for work. If they don't feel secure, they'll write screenplays, stage plays, or commercial jingles. They wont write novels for free, don't like being ripped off and don';t like being told that piracy and casual sharing is just "advertising" and something they should "put up with". To paraphrase Neil Gaiman, authors aren't our bitches.
To me, DRM is like copyright-a necessary evil and an imperfect tool meant to prevent the author from being screwed over and an encouragement for the author to do the hard work of writing a novel instead of say, writing commercials.
There are some authors and some publishers that are comfortable publishing DRM free. Most aren't , for what I think are good reasons, and I want to keep reading them, so....

Quite frankly, you seem to both ignorant of e-book history and already have your mind made up. A dangerous combination.

The long term? You haven't mentioned anything about the long term. John Maynard Keyes notes that in the long term, we're all dead.

The popular dogma here...I'd rather call it independent evaluations that you disagree with (whether personally or professionally, I'll pass on). If you want people like me to change our minds, provide facts, that can be independently verified and tested. But it can't be your dogma - What are the facts, and to how many decimal points.

If authors and musicians want to write plays and jingles, that's their business. I'm purchasing durable entertainment with my money, with the emphasis on durable. They're free not to produce their product, just like I can withhold my custom. I'm spending my beer money for entertainment. I could just spend it on beer. I have no delusion I'm a patron of the arts. Nor is there any moral imperative that I should be. Authors may not be our bitches, but at the same time readers aren't their wallets. If you want to compete for my beer money, go ahead. Eric Flint understands this full well. Niel Gaiman apparently doesn't. (See - http://www.baen.com/library/ for Eric Flint's take. And he is currently a 6 figure author, giving away e-books...)

Copyright is a different set of discussions. I will note, however, that the Golden Age of Radio, Movies, and Pulp Fiction, was in an era with an maximum copyright of 56 years (28 years with one fileable extension.) There wasn't any Oh My God! I can only exploit this for the next 56 years, I can't product this entertainment because my grandchildren won't get royalties. Everybody figure all the interesting money would be made in the first 10 years or so, so let's write/product the next product for sale. Now it's Hollywood bribing politicians to keep extending and extending the copyright, lest they lose a dime.

But the big nose under the back of the tent is durability. I can read Mark Twain just as readily as I can read the latest best seller (shudder). Project Gutenberg US had over 35,000 P.D. books and periodicals for free. I could spend the rest of my life just reading them. (And I am a contributor, as well.) Along with free entertainment (Broadcast TV and Radio), other durable forms of entertainment (how long does a DVD last? - I have over 1500 of them - all commercially bought. And 700 audio CD's.), not to mention P-books, I don't have spend a dime for more entertainment unless it suits me. And DRM doesn't suit me. You want me to buy an e-book replacement for one of P-books? I'll pay the money - but on my terms - no DRM. Otherwise no dice. And believe me, I can outsit the authors/publishers.

No more books being written? My word, there was over 47,00 titles published in 2009. I don't think it will dry up tomorrow. If it does, writers like Eric Flint will be making 7 or 8 figures, because they will have so much less competition...

[stonetools]

But again: you're missing the big point. Why spend all these resources on DRM to prevent piracy when it doesn't prevent piracy?

Because it does prevent large scale casual sharing between friends and associates. This was dealt with at length in the Other Thread, so please reread that if you need a refresher.
If you can't come up with a better answer , then I conclude that DRM is the best answer, with a requirement that the booksellers establish a migration path for those who want to switch devices. I see this as quite sensible and achievable. Whats not sensible is attack the publishers and booksellers for the current arrangement, while pretending that their current concerns are unreal.

[clifswin]

Maybe more reasons than this, but here's my "they're evil" -- I've been buying DRM books from Ereader.com for over ten years, probably averaging six to eight books a month. I've also bought from Mobipocket, and more recently Amazon and Barnes and Noble. I read on my Palm PDA for years, then I switched to using a smartphone about four years ago. My latest WP7 phone? LOVELY device -- but Barnes and Noble hasn't made a peep about supporting it, with EITHER the Nook OR Ereader format. Suddenly I find myself the proud owner of a large virtual shelf of books I'm functionally barred from reading except when sitting at my computer, and could completely lose access to when I next change my computer's OS. I wouldn't accept a dead-tree book that only allowed me to read it under terms like that, and I'm not happy when a DRM ebook does it either.

[stonetools]

But the big nose under the back of the tent is durability. I can read Mark Twain just as readily as I can read the latest best seller (shudder). Project Gutenberg US had over 35,000 P.D. books and periodicals for free. I could spend the rest of my life just reading them. (And I am a contributor, as well.) Along with free entertainment (Broadcast TV and Radio), other durable forms of entertainment (how long does a DVD last? - I have over 1500 of them - all commercially bought. And 700 audio CD's.), not to mention P-books, I don't have spend a dime for more entertainment unless it suits me. And DRM doesn't suit me. You want me to buy an e-book replacement for one of P-books? I'll pay the money - but on my terms - no DRM. Otherwise no dice. And believe me, I can outsit the authors/publishers.

Most authors, publishers and booksellers disagree. They see the figures, they have the expertise and above all they have the responsibility to make these decisions. I'll go with them over an interested amateur who isn't in the business and who thinks he knows better than the experts. Sorry.
You can spend your money how you like. In the meantime, there has been a sharp rise in the purchase of ebooks by average readers who don't care anything about DRM. I think the publishers care a lot more about that , than the theories of the digerati.

[queentess]

Originally Posted by stonetools

If you can't come up with a better answer , then I conclude that DRM is the best answer

Burden Of Proof:
the claim that whatever has not yet been proved false must be true (or vice versa). Essentially the arguer claims that he should win by default if his opponent can't make a strong enough case.

There may be three problems here. First, the arguer claims priority, but can he back up that claim ? Second, he is impatient with ambiguity, and wants a final answer right away. And third, "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

[Lemurion]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Because it does prevent large scale casual sharing between friends and associates. This was dealt with at length in the Other Thread, so please reread that if you need a refresher.
If you can't come up with a better answer , then I conclude that DRM is the best answer, with a requirement that the booksellers establish a migration path for those who want to switch devices. I see this as quite sensible and achievable. Whats not sensible is attack the publishers and booksellers for the current arrangement, while pretending that their current concerns are unreal.

So you're saying that DRM protects the industry because it prevents the age-old habit of passing a book along to your co-workers, who then pass it around the office until half the staff decide they're going to buy the next one?

Please note, Baen encourages casual sharing; and they are on record as making more money from eBooks than from Canada: and as someone who has managed a bookstore in Canada, I can say that Canadians spend more per capita on books than Americans.

DRM neither prevents lost sales nor increases sales.

[queentess]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Most authors, publishers and booksellers disagree. They see the figures, they have the expertise and above all they have the responsibility to make these decisions. I'll go with them over an interested amateur who isn't in the business and who thinks he knows better than the experts. Sorry.

Appeal to unnamed authority

Originally Posted by stonetools

You can spend your money how you like. In the meantime, there has been a sharp rise in the purchase of ebooks by average readers who don't care anything about DRM.

False Cause:
assuming that because two things happened, the first one caused the second one. (Sequence is not causation.) For example, "More ebooks are being purchased than ever. Readers don't care about DRM."

Originally Posted by stonetools

I think the publishers care a lot more about that , than the theories of the digerati.

Argument By Gibberish

[Lemurion]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Most authors, publishers and booksellers disagree. They see the figures, they have the expertise and above all they have the responsibility to make these decisions. I'll go with them over an interested amateur who isn't in the business and who thinks he knows better than the experts. Sorry.
You can spend your money how you like. In the meantime, there has been a sharp rise in the purchase of ebooks by average readers who don't care anything about DRM. I think the publishers care a lot more about that , than the theories of the digerati.

1) I write (and edit) for a living.
2) I've managed a bookstore.
3) I've worked in publishing.
4) I'm not the only MR member with such qualifications.

I don't support abolishing DRM because it's the one thing holding us back from Utopia, I support abolishing it because I think it's a stupid waste of time and resources.

[wodin]

Originally Posted by stonetools

well, it may sound like nonsense, but it does have the virtue of truth. In the future, the average user is mostly going to have a device that can read all formats-a PSP, a tablet or a smart-phone. Indeed, one of the reasons to avoid dedicated ereaders will be precisely to avoid this issue.

Having been buggered often by the evil DRM in the past, I've finally hit on a completely legal solution. You don’t have to worry about DRM if you stay away from proprietary hardware. My reader can read any of the currently available DRM and ebook file formats, be they Kindle, Sony, B&N, or what have you, (except maybe whatever Apple uses) and without stripping the DRM. I am still at a loss to read some of my old .lit files, but that’s mostly because I forgot the credentials.

What is this marvelous reader? I’m glad I asked; it’s an Android tablet, with Kindle, Nook, Sony, and Aldiko ereaders (all free on the Android Market) installed. Since I’ve gotten my Galaxy Tab, DRM has become a non issue.

I’ll grant that it doesn’t have the advantages of e-ink (there are only two that I can think of), but neither does it have any of the disadvantages.

[stonetools]

Originally Posted by clifswin

Maybe more reasons than this, but here's my "they're evil" -- I've been buying DRM books from Ereader.com for over ten years, probably averaging six to eight books a month. I've also bought from Mobipocket, and more recently Amazon and Barnes and Noble. I read on my Palm PDA for years, then I switched to using a smartphone about four years ago. My latest WP7 phone? LOVELY device -- but Barnes and Noble hasn't made a peep about supporting it, with EITHER the Nook OR Ereader format. Suddenly I find myself the proud owner of a large virtual shelf of books I'm functionally barred from reading except when sitting at my computer, and could completely lose access to when I next change my computer's OS. I wouldn't accept a dead-tree book that only allowed me to read it under terms like that, and I'm not happy when a DRM ebook does it either.

Your concerns are real. Unfortunately, things like this happen in the computer world. I lost files switching from Word Perfect to Word. If you switch from Mac to Windows or vice versa, you'll lose your programs and probably at least some data. There is just no certainty that your new device can read your old files.
Pbooks aren't ebooks. Ebooks have lots of advantages over pbooks. One advantage they DON'T have is durability. I think this is just something that you have to figure in making your decision between p books and ebooks. If I bought a book that I KNEW I wanted to be able to reread in 20 years, I'd buy a Pbook. That said, I believe that booksellers should be required to have a migration path if you want to switch to a new device. that's quite achievable with DRM.

[queentess]

Originally Posted by stonetools

well, it may sound like nonsense, but it does have the virtue of truth.

Argument By Dismissal:
an idea is rejected without saying why.

Dismissals usually have overtones. For example, "If you don't like it, leave the country" implies that your cause is hopeless, or that you are unpatriotic, or that your ideas are foreign, or maybe all three. "If you don't like it, don't buy ebooks. The publishers won't miss your dollars anyway."

Originally Posted by stonetools

In the future, the average user is mostly going to have a device that can read all formats-a PSP, a tablet or a smart-phone. Indeed, one of the reasons to avoid dedicated ereaders will be precisely to avoid this issue.

Moving The Goalposts :
if your opponent successfully addresses some point, then say he must also address some further point. If you can make these points more and more difficult (or diverse) then eventually your opponent must fail

"Migrating to another device doesn't matter because in the future everyone will have a device that magically reads all formats."

[queentess]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Your concerns are real. Unfortunately, things like this happen in the computer world. I lost files switching from Word Perfect to Word. If you switch from Mac to Windows or vice versa, you'll lose your programs and probably at least some data. There is just no certainty that your new device can read your old files.

Argument By Scenario:
telling a story which ties together unrelated material, and then using the story as proof they are related.

Files I create are not the same as paying $15 for an ebook. I can save my files in new formats. I cannot authorize an ebook for another device or convert it to another (newer) format.