Manga collector prosecuted for child porn

[tompe]

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

And the biggest difference between what happened in Sweden and what would happen in the US is that the sentence the guy would get in the US would be a felony conviction with 3+ years of prison, plus being placed on a sex offender registry. It looks like the guy in Sweden received a $500 fine.

He also lost his paying customers and since the thing that triggered this was a custody case he will also probably loose the custody case.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by tompe

He also lost his paying customers and since the thing that triggered this was a custody case he will also probably loose the custody case.

In England he wouldn't have had to be found guilty to lose his children. Any hint of anything like that and they would be snatched away from both parents.

[Giggleton]

I'm not really sure what non-fiction is, but I know what fiction is, everything that has ever been written, drawn or otherwise expressed.

The only law I am interested in and by extension the only law I think YOU should be interested in is the natural law, of the universe. Doing as good as you can with what you got. That is the only standard we need to live by. We already know that national borders and things tend to muck up any law that we attempt to make so why do we continue to bother?? Why should someone anywhere have the right to tell me what I can and cannot look at? Or read for that matter, it is ludicrous on principle. We don't need any court to tell us otherwise, we just know that it is so.

[khalleron]

Originally Posted by cfrizz

Child pornography whether comics or pictures of real children is still illegal. In the case above this guy is a convicted offender. Trying to justify by saying it's just comics doesn't wash. If you get off on watching children get raped, abused whatever, then you deserve what you get if you get caught.

This is a false equivalence. I don't 'get off' on violence, but I've watched many violent movies and TV shows.

One can appreciate comics and manga for their artistic qualities without being a sex offender.

The American Founding Fathers wrote freedom of speech into the Constitution for a reason. If you start restricting speech, where do you stop?

If no crime was committed in the creation of the work (no persons or animals were harmed or treated cruelly), the consumption of the work should not be a crime, either.

[doreenjoy]

This thread should probably be moved over the Politics & Religion forum...

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by khalleron

The American Founding Fathers wrote freedom of speech into the Constitution for a reason. If you start restricting speech, where do you stop?

If no crime was committed in the creation of the work (no persons or animals were harmed or treated cruelly), the consumption of the work should not be a crime, either.

The case is not in the U.S., so the American Founding Fathers' beliefs are not relevant.

In any event, freedom of speech in the U.S. Constitution is not absolute. Not all speech is protected--the famous example is that one cannot yell "Fire" in a crowded theater. Neither are libel and obscenity protected by the First Amendment.

[igorsk]

Neil Gaiman said it well two years ago when a similar case happened in Iowa.
Why defend freedom of icky speech?

[AlexBell]

Originally Posted by igorsk

Neil Gaiman said it well two years ago when a similar case happened in Iowa.
Why defend freedom of icky speech?

Thanks for the reference. It's (in my opinion) a superb article.

But I agree with DoreenJoy.

Regards, Alex

[Xoanon]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

What about books like A Clockwork Orange that create pictures in people's minds?

Yes, admittedly I don't 'get' comics, but I would have thought that images you conjure up in your imagination are going to be more life-like than anything you see drawn in a comic book.

It's only a matter of time before they start censoring novels.

[Giggleton]

Originally Posted by Xoanon

Yes, admittedly I don't 'get' comics, but I would have thought that images you conjure up in your imagination are going to be more life-like than anything you see drawn in a comic book.

It's only a matter of time before they start censoring novels.

One day perhaps, technology will allow you us to translate the stream of your mind into a visual representation onto a screen directly, or if you prefer a 1:1 representation sent to another's consciousness. Copyright? Censorship? I doubt they will have much use then. Might as well start imagining the world as it will be.

[spaze]

I have seen these Manga cartoons at local book stores and I have noticed a lot of damn ugly over-weight men reading them. If this is not perverted then I don't know what is.

And since I am a father of two young girls, I feel disgusted when I see Manga cartoons of pre-teen girls in slutty clothing.

Japan has a reputation of being amajor source of pedofilia as well as panty-sniffing business and in my opinion Manga is categorized within the same theme.

If I would have 4 million downloaded photos on teen girls in skirts, people would see me as a pervert for sure.

[Hellmark]

I used to work with an art community, which hosted a gallery for members to display their art. At one point, someone posted a nonsexual image showing two children nude. No genitals were shown, the image was a 3d rendering (so no actual kids were used in the work), etc. Basically was two naked babies playing in the woods. It didn't violate our guidelines for acceptable art, and was legal by US law at the time, so we didn't remove it. However, someone got upset, and started going around and claiming that we were selling child porn. Police did nothing because law wasn't broken, but the person raising the ruckus also started complaining to business partners and service providers. Ended up being that the Paypal account was frozen, all money in the account (which if I remember at the time, ended up being a couple grand because some money was still going in after access to the account was removed) was confiscated by Paypal. Paypal never did rule either way against the site, but unfortunately was within their right to just lock us out like that due to the ToS at the time.

I no longer work with the site due to other issues, and my opinion doesn't reflect theirs, but I personally had no problem with the image. Like I said, no kids were actually involved and it was non-sexual. I personally would have never done anything like that, but context included, why should it be an issue? People have been taking pictures of their kids taking a bath for years, yet in recent history those people are getting labeled as pedophiles and child pornographers. It seems that people are unable to separate nudity from sex anymore, especially in the US and western countries it influences.

[spaze]

Somebody hurry up and file a suit against Nirvana!

[Hellmark]

Originally Posted by spaze

I have seen these Manga cartoons at local book stores and I have noticed a lot of damn ugly over-weight men reading them. If this is not perverted then I don't know what is.

And since I am a father of two young girls, I feel disgusted when I see Manga cartoons of pre-teen girls in slutty clothing.

Japan has a reputation of being amajor source of pedofilia as well as panty-sniffing business and in my opinion Manga is categorized within the same theme.

If I would have 4 million downloaded photos on teen girls in skirts, people would see me as a pervert for sure.

Not all manga has sexual images like that, so it really is unfair to use that brush to paint everyone who reads it. I still read comics and some manga, despite being 27, but what I read everyone is typically fully clothed and not in sexual situations. On the few occaisions there is, usually it is something as minor as cleavage being shown, and all the characters involved are adults. Yes, there is a lot of manga showing girls in scantily clad clothing, but there is also age to consider. If you want to call manga fans anything, Ephebophiles would be better fitting than pedophiles. However, for people who read it, most do not find sexual pleasure in it, and still would be improper to call them anything of the sort. You can still enjoy something without seeking pleasure by it.

[khalleron]

Originally Posted by spaze

I have seen these Manga cartoons at local book stores and I have noticed a lot of damn ugly over-weight men reading them. If this is not perverted then I don't know what is.

If they were handsome, slender men, would you still be so disgusted?

Originally Posted by spaze

And since I am a father of two young girls, I feel disgusted when I see Manga cartoons of pre-teen girls in slutty clothing.

Have you been into an American toy store lately? Walked down the doll aisle?

Originally Posted by spaze

Japan has a reputation of being a major source of pedofilia as well as panty-sniffing business and in my opinion Manga is categorized within the same theme.

Way to tar an entire art form with one racist brush.

Originally Posted by spaze

If I would have 4 million downloaded photos on teen girls in skirts, people would see me as a pervert for sure.

What your neighbors think of you and what the law allows are two different things. When one begins to think that everything one disapproves of should be made illegal, one has entered the authoritarian zone for sure.

Any of my friends (or posters on other forums) would be glad to tell you how thoroughly I disapprove of the entire porn industry on feminist grounds, but I still uphold the rights of people to express themselves in ways I find disgusting and demeaning, as long as no one is actually harmed in the process.

The right to express an opinion is more important than the opinion itself.