Sorry Kindle, You're Not Invited

[covingtoncat73]

Originally Posted by tomsem

Actually that is not necessarily the case. You can read B&N ePubs with Bluefire Reader on iOS and most likely with other Adobe-RMSDK powered reading systems as well. Sony is a notable exception, because they have chosen not to update to the latest RMSDK (or any version of it since Nook shipped). I would not be surprised if Kobo reader could read them also, not that they would necessarily advertise the fact since they don't sell content with that form of the DRM.

The point is that B&N DRM is not proprietary to B&N, and is fully supported and available to anyone who licenses Adobe's client-side SDK, or purchases Adobe's content server. B&N and Adobe created this version to obviate the need to create Adobe IDs, authorize device with Adobe's server etc., thereby providing a more seamless user experience for B&N customers (authorization is still needed to read library books on Nook since it requires AdobeID etc.). Other vendors are free to do the same, and are also free to enable reading of so called "B&N" flavor in their reading systems.

Hon, I didn't understand most of that. I just know they call them "nookbooks," so I guess that means just Nook and they don't work on my Kobo.

[kindlekitten]

Originally Posted by iandix

Just saying "no it's not" all the time and refusing to answer direct questions, will not win any debate.

Is it legal to strip DRM from library books (books you don't own)?
Do you keep copies of said books?
Do you delete these books after 21 days (or less, depending how long you borrowed these books)?

Have you sent a letter to the library and publishers telling them what you are doing? if not... why not ..if it's legal you have nothing to fear. I would love to see their reply to your copyright violations.

is it legal to not sit backwards on a donkey, and whistle Dixie every other week in Patagonia? it's like proving a negative. you can rarely prove a legal unless it has been tested in court. our closest court test is personal use, and all of that information has been presented in the other thread I have referred to continuously.

I do not keep copies of ebooks. it is not incumbent upon me to contact publishers regarding my personal use of any printed material

Originally Posted by Asawi

Illegal or not, it's against library rules, if that is of any importance at all (I'm guessing "no" here...).

(I take it somewhere along my membership process I agree to follow the rules...)

Either way, you can't expect the library to tell you "oh yes, you can read our books on the Kindle if you do this, this and this. It's breaking the rules, but since the rules are stupid anyway ...", and after all, that's what all this started with. A library trying to teach people how to use their service.

Excerpts of Overdrive copyright notice from FLP (Philadelphia) site (highlights by me):

Headline: Important Notice about Copyrighted Materials
<snip>
The Content and any other copyrighted material may not be modified, ...
<snip>
You will not redistribute, transmit, assign, sell, broadcast, rent, share, lend, modify, adapt, edit...
<end of excerpts>

this is a personal use law. you also live in a different country. different laws.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Why is it you refuse to answer my questions? Is it because if you did, you would have to say that it is not OK to strip the DRM from library eBooks and thus your entire argument that yes you can read library eBooks with a Kindle has just been flushed down the toilet?

do you actually have a question or are you simply engaged in Sony rattling?

[ApK]

Originally Posted by Nyssa

All you have to do is type "Convert" in the subject field and they will convert it for you.

I don't think that works for epubs:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/custom...00&#converting

But if they are nonDRM epubs, they can be converted easily (and automaticlly sent to the Kindle) by Calibre.

[Lemurion]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

I do not keep copies of ebooks. it is not incumbent upon me to contact publishers regarding my personal use of any printed material

this is a personal use law. you also live in a different country. different laws.

Are you saying that personal use effectively lets you "change the locks" on someone else's property?

Why should any legal decision regarding what you are able to do with your own property have any bearing on what you can do with the library's property?

I know that when it comes to paper books I can do a lot with my own books that I can't do with the library's. In fact, it could be argued that removing the DRM from library eBooks is the equivalent of removing the bar code, card, and holder from a dead tree library book - and I think we can all agree on how happy that would make the librarians.

So, while yes, it is possible to read library books on Kindle - the fact that it requires stripping the information that proves it's the library's book rather than one's own, makes it at best an unauthorized and at worst a possibly illegal option.

It all comes back to the first rule of library books: they're not yours.

[Piper_]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

Are you saying that personal use effectively lets you "change the locks" on someone else's property?

Why should any legal decision regarding what you are able to do with your own property have any bearing on what you can do with the library's property?

I know that when it comes to paper books I can do a lot with my own books that I can't do with the library's. In fact, it could be argued that removing the DRM from library eBooks is the equivalent of removing the bar code, card, and holder from a dead tree library book - and I think we can all agree on how happy that would make the librarians.

So, while yes, it is possible to read library books on Kindle - the fact that it requires stripping the information that proves it's the library's book rather than one's own, makes it at best an unauthorized and at worst a possibly illegal option.

It all comes back to the first rule of library books: they're not yours.

The thing is, the library's property is unchanged. Even the file I downloaded is unchanged.

I'd definitely not do it if it had any effect on their property.

As it is, I see it as no different from using one of those handheld OCR/TTS vocalizers on one of their paper books so I can listen to it instead of read it.

[Lemurion]

Originally Posted by Piper_

The thing is, the library's property is unchanged. Even the file I downloaded is unchanged.

I'd definitely not do it if it had any effect on their property.

As it is, I see it as no different from using one of those handheld OCR/TTS vocalizers on one of their paper books so I can listen to it instead of read it.

But the file you are reading on your Kindle is not the same as the one you downloaded from the library. It's a different format (mobi instead of epub), and has no DRM - and one thing DRM does do is make it possible to track ownership of a file - so there is no way to tell that the copy on your Kindle is indeed a library book.

Effectively you've made your own personal copy of the library book and can keep it indefinitely - which certainly violates the spirit of the agreement you made when you joined the library.

If nothing else, I would say this looks like a lot shakier legal ground than if you'd stripped the DRM from an epub you bought from Sony.

Whether you choose to do this or not is up to you, but there's no way you'll ever get the library to officially support it.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

Effectively you've made your own personal copy of the library book and can keep it indefinitely - which certainly violates the spirit of the agreement you made when you joined the library.

NO! You can NOT keep it indefinitely. No more than you can keep indefinitely the COPY of the MP3 audio book or video they let you put to your iPod.

You COULD pirate any of those thing, but you MAY not, and if you don't you have not violated the the spirit of the agreement at all.

You are upholding the spirit by making it possible to use the thing for the period you agree to. It would be against the spirit of the agreement if the library, your tax-support public institution for the dissemination of information to the public, PREVENTED you from using the information because of some misguided interpretation of an ill-conceived rule.

Many countries, like Canada, are working to make sure such use is explicitly and clearly protected by law, as it was NEVER the intent of laws like the DMCA to prevent it, and we should be pressuring our reps to do the same.

ApK

[Lemurion]

Originally Posted by ApK

NO! You can NOT keep it indefinitely. No more than you can keep indefinitely the COPY of the MP3 audio book or video they let you put to your iPod.

You COULD pirate any of those thing, but you MAY not, and if you don't you have not violated the the spirit of the agreement at all.

You are upholding the spirit by making it possible to use the thing for the period you agree to. It would be against the spirit of the agreement if the library, your tax-support public institution for the dissemination of information to the public, PREVENTED you from using the information because of some misguided interpretation of an ill-conceived rule.

Many countries, like Canada, are working to make sure such use is explicitly and clearly protected by law, as it was NEVER the intent of laws like the DMCA to prevent it, and we should be pressuring our reps to do the same.

ApK

Yes, you can. you should not, but you can.

It's really simple - the library lends books for people to read on authorized, ADE compatible devices - and anyone who strips the DRM to read it on a Kindle is breaking the terms of the loan.

If you want to officially be able to read library books on a Kindle, you need to find a way to get Amazon and the libraries to agree on a method to enable it.

Fair use is about doing what you want with your property.

Library books are not your property, and the library has the right to set limits on what you do with their books. You may or may not agree with those limits, but they still have the right to set them.

[Piper_]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

But the file you are reading on your Kindle is not the same as the one you downloaded from the library. It's a different format (mobi instead of epub), and has no DRM - and one thing DRM does do is make it possible to track ownership of a file - so there is no way to tell that the copy on your Kindle is indeed a library book.

Effectively you've made your own personal copy of the library book and can keep it indefinitely - which certainly violates the spirit of the agreement you made when you joined the library.

If nothing else, I would say this looks like a lot shakier legal ground than if you'd stripped the DRM from an epub you bought from Sony.

Whether you choose to do this or not is up to you, but there's no way you'll ever get the library to officially support it.

I definitely agree it would be wrong if I kept it.

The DRM is there to make sure I don't keep it. I'm not keeping it, so no harm, no foul.

To me, this is no different from when you go in for a procedure at the hospital and they give you a form to fill out. You have to agree to a lot of things, but if you ask your doctor, he'll often tell you you can ignore some of those prohibitions, leave out some data, or even skip some of the prep.

Respecting intent and high ethics are more important than following technicalities, imo.

[wyndslash]

well, i think that most people who would strip the DRM off library books to read on their kindle would willingly delete it after. if they wanted to keep it, they could skip the line and just download from the darknet :P

that is, of course, unless the library has a bigger selection or something, but i think there's something to be said about people who steal from libraries @_@

[ApK]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

Yes, you can. you should not, but you can.

Can should may irrelevant all. That's not the issue. See my several posts above establishing that this is not the issue. Don't keep stuff longer than you're allowed. End of that story.

It's really simple - the library lends books for people to read on authorized, ADE compatible devices - and anyone who strips the DRM to read it on a Kindle is breaking the terms of the loan.

Often this is probably true. Whether those terms are fair, just, enforceable, or even legal is less clear.

If you want to officially be able to read library books on a Kindle, you need to find a way to get Amazon and the libraries to agree on a method to enable it.

Yes, and/or get the laws clarified to protect our right to as we do now. Getting as a supported feature would likely be simpler for users, and getting the law clarified would be good for everyone.

Fair use is about doing what you want with your property.

Uh...no...fair use is about what you can do with SOMEONE ELSE's intellectual property without first getting permission. But this has nothing to do with fair use, which is a copyright doctrine. This has to do with, as you say, terms of use between you and the library and/or the library and a publisher or DRM company. No copyright issue is involved here as long as you don't pirate the material, say, by keeping it longer than you're allowed or giving out copies.

ApK

[Lemurion]

Originally Posted by Piper_

I definitely agree it would be wrong if I kept it.

The DRM is there to make sure I don't keep it. I'm not keeping it, so no harm, no foul.

To me, this is no different from when you go in for a procedure at the hospital and they give you a form to fill out. You have to agree to a lot of things, but if you ask your doctor, he'll often tell you you can ignore some of those prohibitions, leave out some data, or even skip some of the prep.

Respecting intent and high ethics are more important than following technicalities, imo.

I can certainly see the point, and in the long run for many people I'm sure that's exactly how it works out.

Having said that, it still doesn't justify the idea that the library should support breaking the DRM so that people can read their books on Kindle - or that stripping DRM from library books is legally equivalent to stripping DRM from one's own purchased books, and so the same arguments that justify the latter would therefore justify the former as well.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

Having said that, it still doesn't justify the idea that the library should support breaking the DRM so that people can read their books on Kindle

I agree. I would not expect or request support from the libraries.
Until policies and/or legal protections are worked out, thank goodness for the Internet.

[FF2]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

Yes, you can. you should not, but you can.

It's really simple - the library lends books for people to read on authorized, ADE compatible devices - and anyone who strips the DRM to read it on a Kindle is breaking the terms of the loan.

If you want to officially be able to read library books on a Kindle, you need to find a way to get Amazon and the libraries to agree on a method to enable it.

Fair use is about doing what you want with your property.

Library books are not your property, and the library has the right to set limits on what you do with their books. You may or may not agree with those limits, but they still have the right to set them.

I just decided to see what terms and conditions my library might have flashed at me. Just going to their elibrary, they showed:



South The Story of Shackleton's Last Expedition, 1914-1917

And what surprised me was this:

"
Adobe EPUB eBook
Copy: allowed with no limitations
Print: allowed with no limitations
"

So, maybe borrowing an epub book is more open than some appear to believe.

And I really don't see much warning about what I can or cannot do once borrowed. There is this:

"You must have the appropriate digital software downloaded to your computer or PDA before you download these titles."

Well, I have the appropriate software on my computer, ADE, so I qualify for the download. Nothing else limits me after that???

[kindlekitten]

Originally Posted by FF2

I just decided to see what terms and conditions my library might have flashed at me. Just going to their elibrary, they showed:



South The Story of Shackleton's Last Expedition, 1914-1917

And what surprised me was this:

"
Adobe EPUB eBook
Copy: allowed with no limitations
Print: allowed with no limitations
"

So, maybe borrowing an epub book is more open than some appear to believe.

And I really don't see much warning about what I can or cannot do once borrowed. There is this:

"You must have the appropriate digital software downloaded to your computer or PDA before you download these titles."

Well, I have the appropriate software on my computer, ADE, so I qualify for the download. Nothing else limits me after that???

there ya' go