Sorry Kindle, You're Not Invited

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by ApK

Could a person like him install configure and use ADE and copy the ADE books to his device?

Probably a lot of people can't.

For a lot of people, the setup is the hardest part. If that was done, the rest would be fairly easy.

My mom uses a Sony Reader and I do help her out sometimes. For her, the setup is the hardest part. Once done, she can pick up what she needs and she's good to go. But I have remote access to her computer so I don't always have to go over there to help her out when I need to see what she is having a problem with.

[kindlekitten]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I do know that time limited Adept DRM is different then all the time Adept DRM. So my guess is that time limited Mobipocket DRM may be different as well.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Amazon uses Mobipocket as the underlying format and they've changed the DRM slightly in terms of the PID. Also they use different servers for handling the DRM then Mobipocket does.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I'm just wondering what apps there are for portable devices (other then Windows) that will handle library Mobipocket DRM.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

The DRM for purchased Mobipocket is different from library Mobipocket DRM. One allows you to read for as long as you want or are able to due to the DRM and the other expires after 7, 14, or 21 days. So in that respect they are different. I'm just wondering if a program that handles the all-the-time DRM also will handle the time limited DRM without any special coding.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Calibre is not in trouble at all. Calibre has nothing to do with stripping DRM. Other people wrote the plug-ins for stripping DRM. Kovid is staying away from DRM stripping and thus, he and Calibre are free and clear.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I'm sorry, but that's just wrong. Lawyers do give free advice on Internet forums. And they are good lawyers.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

The discussion is that the Kindle is not not compatible with the eBooks used by Overdrive at libraries.

I know one can strip DRM and convert. But that's not the issue. The issue is that for most people, it's not compatible and the library in the article is not using the Kindle which would just confuse patrons.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I may very well have either missed it or forgotten about it. But that still doesn't answer my question. Is it legal to strip the DRM from library eBooks? That's different to stripping the DRM from purchased eBooks. So please stop side-stepping the question. This is the third time I've asked this.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

But there are libraries in Florida that do support eBooks and because you live in Florida, you may very well be able to get library cards.

Now that you know it might be possible, when's the Kindle going back?

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I'm not a lawyer but I play one on MR.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I just wing it as I go along. If it sounds good we'll go with it even if it's total nonsense.

would someone PLEASE teach this poor child how to multi-quote?

Originally Posted by aagstn

In the US circumventing DRM is a direct violation of the DMCA and if you are caught it is a very big deal. Why hassle with it when you can just buy a nook or any other Adobe DRM compatible reader for library books.

no it's not.

Originally Posted by Freeshadow

the question of legality depends of the country of the resident - unless assumed, that amazons Kindle is a US-only device; the statement that DRM-removal for private usage IS legal is false information IF countries are not specified.

said that

Originally Posted by JSWolf

For a lot of people, the setup is the hardest part. If that was done, the rest would be fairly easy.

My mom uses a Sony Reader and I do help her out sometimes. For her, the setup is the hardest part. Once done, she can pick up what she needs and she's good to go. But I have remote access to her computer so I don't always have to go over there to help her out when I need to see what she is having a problem with.

if people have gotten a Kindle and gotten as far as MR they are probably starting to think outside the box. taking the next step really isn't a far reach.



unless of course you are in a belt and suspenders sort of world

[iandix]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

would someone PLEASE
no it's not.

Just saying "no it's not" all the time and refusing to answer direct questions, will not win any debate.

Is it legal to strip DRM from library books (books you don't own)?
Do you keep copies of said books?
Do you delete these books after 21 days (or less, depending how long you borrowed these books)?

Have you sent a letter to the library and publishers telling them what you are doing? if not... why not ..if it's legal you have nothing to fear. I would love to see their reply to your copyright violations.

[Asawi]

Illegal or not, it's against library rules, if that is of any importance at all (I'm guessing "no" here...).

(I take it somewhere along my membership process I agree to follow the rules...)

Either way, you can't expect the library to tell you "oh yes, you can read our books on the Kindle if you do this, this and this. It's breaking the rules, but since the rules are stupid anyway ...", and after all, that's what all this started with. A library trying to teach people how to use their service.

Excerpts of Overdrive copyright notice from FLP (Philadelphia) site (highlights by me):

Headline: Important Notice about Copyrighted Materials
<snip>
The Content and any other copyrighted material may not be modified, ...
<snip>
You will not redistribute, transmit, assign, sell, broadcast, rent, share, lend, modify, adapt, edit...
<end of excerpts>

[Lemurion]

Kindlekitten: if you know a way to read library books on a Kindle without stripping the DRM, please let us know.

If you don't, please understand that the library can and will not assist their members with ways to read library books on Kindle because that would fall under the DMCA's prohibition on enabling DRM circumvention by others.

There's also the fact that there's a huge difference between circumventing DRM on your own property and circumventing DRM on something you don't own.

Locking me out of or limiting the use of my property is unfair: locking me out of or limiting my use of your property is not.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

please understand that the library can and will not assist their members with ways to read library books on Kindle

This is almost certainly true.

because that would fall under the DMCA's prohibition on enabling DRM circumvention by others.

This is almost certainly false. If the library won't help it's because either it's not a supported use and by definition an unsupported use is unsupported, or because it's a violation of their terms of use. Neither involves the DMCA, copyright, or any other law ('cept possibly civil contract law.)

[Piper_]

No library is going to officially say to do it, because they can't trust everyone to police themselves. But one of our librarians unofficially did tell me she had no problem with it as long as I deleted the book myself when the time was up.

I can't wrap my head around anyone's thinking it's wrong for a person to respect the intent of the law and obey it all by themselves.

It seems like insisting everyone run their car tire over a speed bump and saying you're wrong to straddle it, even if you don't go over the speed limit.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by Piper_

No library is going to officially say to do it, because they can't trust everyone to police themselves.

They trust them to police themselves with MP3 audio book and music downloads, they trust them to police themselves with Overdrive mobile videos, so this point is not an issue. The libraries clearly have no problem with trusting borrowers to delete the digital files they borrow when they are supposed to.

This is what I was trying to make clear earlier.

ApK

[Piper_]

Originally Posted by ApK

They trust them to police themselves with MP3 audio book and music downloads, they trust them to police themselves with Overdrive mobile videos, so this point is not an issue. The libraries clearly have no problem with trusting borrowers to delete the digital files they borrow when they are supposed to.

This is what I was trying to make clear earlier.

ApK

Oh, you're right. Good point.

[DiapDealer]

They trust them to police themselves with MP3 audio book and music downloads, they trust them to police themselves with Overdrive mobile videos, so this point is not an issue. The libraries clearly have no problem with trusting borrowers to delete the digital files they borrow when they are supposed to.

But this isn't an issue of libraries trusting their users. Publishers require them to DRM the ebooks so they self-destruct. If they want to lend ebooks--they comply. Nobody's requiring them to put time-sensitive DRM on videos and audio-books, so they don't. This is why most librarians just don't care what you have to do to read them. They do trust their users for the most part.

Trust doesn't enter into it... from the library's stand-point anyway.

EDIT: I thought I was clarifying something you said, but after a re-read... I'm pretty sure I'm just agreeing with you.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

would someone PLEASE teach this poor child how to multi-quote?

Why is it you refuse to answer my questions? Is it because if you did, you would have to say that it is not OK to strip the DRM from library eBooks and thus your entire argument that yes you can read library eBooks with a Kindle has just been flushed down the toilet?

[tomsem]

Originally Posted by covingtoncat73

Amazon wants to sell Kindles, not books. If they wanted to sell books, they would sell ePubs as well as Mobis. Same with B&N. They want to sell Nooks, not books. They may sell ePubs but, due to DRM, they only work on Nooks.

Actually that is not necessarily the case. You can read B&N ePubs with Bluefire Reader on iOS and most likely with other Adobe-RMSDK powered reading systems as well. Sony is a notable exception, because they have chosen not to update to the latest RMSDK (or any version of it since Nook shipped). I would not be surprised if Kobo reader could read them also, not that they would necessarily advertise the fact since they don't sell content with that form of the DRM.

The point is that B&N DRM is not proprietary to B&N, and is fully supported and available to anyone who licenses Adobe's client-side SDK, or purchases Adobe's content server. B&N and Adobe created this version to obviate the need to create Adobe IDs, authorize device with Adobe's server etc., thereby providing a more seamless user experience for B&N customers (authorization is still needed to read library books on Nook since it requires AdobeID etc.). Other vendors are free to do the same, and are also free to enable reading of so called "B&N" flavor in their reading systems.

[tomsem]

Just a comment: I think it would be Unfortunate for library patrons everywhere if suddenly Overdrive offered Kindle AZW format alongside ePub. Libraries would be forced to invest in both formats, which would further reduce availability of both. To some extent that is the case now, between PDF, MOBI, and ePub, but most new acquisitions are ePub, and we don't really need a format battle there.

From that perspective, Amazon is doing us a favor by NOT pushing AZW as a library format, even though technically it would be trivial to do so (since AZW DRM is virtually the same as MOBI DRM, which is already licensed by Overdrive). Kindle owners can read library books on their computers, iOS or Android devices, or if you can stand it, get a Kobo for $60 at one of the closing Borders stores (I tried out a display unit but was not impressed - I'll stick with my iPod Touch).

Of course if Amazon is secretly preparing to be the first to offer ePub3 support on the current or future Kindle, I will not be the person to stand in their way. The Kindle platform experience is, for my dollar, much superior to anything offered by the competition, and very little of that depends on the format it uses.

[Giggleton]

Originally Posted by tomsem

Of course if Amazon is secretly preparing to be the first to offer ePub3 support on the current or future Kindle, I will not be the person to stand in their way. The Kindle platform experience is, for my dollar, much superior to anything offered by the competition, and very little of that depends on the format it uses.

They definitely should, format confusion is a real problem and Amazon's mission is to solve all customer confusion. I'm just slightly annoyed every time I forget that Kindle can't read epubs after I forward myself one through email and receive that apology letter from Amazon, the least they could do is auto convert it for me.

[Nyssa]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

They definitely should, format confusion is a real problem and Amazon's mission is to solve all customer confusion. I'm just slightly annoyed every time I forget that Kindle can't read epubs after I forward myself one through email and receive that apology letter from Amazon, the least they could do is auto convert it for me.

All you have to do is type "Convert" in the subject field and they will convert it for you.