Should high school students have to read Shakespeare?

[Anke Wehner]

Same here, queentess.

I've come across a very few poems that impressed me. They were strongly structured with rhyme and even rhythm, making them almost spoken music.

[DuskyRose]

Originally Posted by Anke Wehner

Same here, queentess.

I've come across a very few poems that impressed me. They were strongly structured with rhyme and even rhythm, making them almost spoken music.

I've never been a poetry person. I've got friends who are, and my living hell is when they ask me to read what they've written. Luckily, over the years they've quit asking after finding over and over again I can't read their mind and figure out what the poem is about.

My problem is context. Sure, words can be cleverly and prettily arranged, but unless I know what's going on the poetry doesn't speak to me. It could be talking about one of a million different things, and I wouldn't know.

Song lyrics can be the same for me as well. I was thinking about it during AI and the Elton John fest this week. The songs make so much more sense to me when I go to Google and look up the meaning of the songs and the lyrics. Especially when it came to the song "Daniel". There's a story there, but the lyrics alone just don't tell it to me. I had to go look them up.

For me, Poetry is just isn't enough for me to work with, no matter how well put together or pretty sounding.

[Gwen Morse]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Half the problem, though, is that we put children off great literature for life by forcing them to read what are very definitely NOT children's books before they're able to appreciate them.

It will come as no great surprise to many people that one of my favourite authors is Dickens. Like every other British schoolchild I was force-fed Dickens at school and HATED his books. It was only when I was in my late 30s that I rediscovered him and learned to love his books for the great literature that they are. You just can't appreciate Dickens' biting social satire when you're a teenager (or at least I couldn't).

I still loathe Thomas Hardy, while many of my literary friends can't praise him highly enough. I had to read four of his books in one year.

[Anke Wehner]

Originally Posted by snipenekkid

reading and analyzing classic literature teaches things beyond basic reading skills. There is realizing when you don't understand a word or phrase it's OK to look up the meanings, it teaches abstract analysis, the idea that everything is open to interpretation so almost all opinions about a work are valid, it teaches one how to defend your interpretation of whatever is being studied but also how to accept you might be wrong. It also instills the ability to discuss often controversial ideas in a mature calm manner.

If you're lucky. I never had a lit class that fit that, with five teachers in two languages. Religious education, yes, maybe history, but definitely not literature. The teachers had their "official" interpretation, and tried to railroad us into it.

Most blatant example was when we talked about Macbeth. The teacher asked what "when the battle's lost and won" meant. To me that was non-information - one side loses, one side wins - like you find in prophecies. ("You will destroy a gret kingdom", or whatever the words were).
Teacher said, "no, that's wrong". After no-one suggested what he wanted to hear, he told us it meant "nothing is as it seems", and then he had the class repeat "nothing is as it seems" in chorus, to make sure we all got it.

Mind, I also like to blame the choice of class reading from my last German teacher on putting me off "Literature". He was rather fond of books about sexually frustrated men in their midlife crisis, which are of course terrible interesting for teenage girls.</sarcasm>

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by DuskyRose

....
.... Elton John..(and Bernie Taupin the lyricist).. meaning of the songs and the lyrics. Especially when it came to the song "Daniel". There's a story there, but the lyrics alone just don't tell it to me..
For me, Poetry is just isn't enough for me to work with, no matter how well put together or pretty sounding.

What an incredible song that is. Bernie is an incredible songwriter! And Elton is no slouch either!

You guys make me sad about the poetry comments, but I know that that feeling is exactly why poetry is not more well known, read, available. There are some amazing poets out there doing wonderful work and it's not the cryptic academic krap that most people think of after being forced to read ancient poetry in weird dialects.

Things like Lee Young Li, Dorianne Laux, Ted Kooser, Sandra Cisneros

Check out some of the poets and poems from my poetry page:

http://www.kacweb.com/poems/poetrylinks.html


Here's one of my favorites from Ted Kooser (recent poet laurette of the U.S.A.):



Selecting A Reader



First, I would have her be beautiful,
and walking carefully up on my poetry
at the loneliest moment of an afternoon,
her hair still damp at the neck
from washing it. She should be wearing
a raincoat, an old one, dirty
from not having money enough for the cleaners.
She will take out her glasses, and there
in the bookstore, she will thumb
over my poems, then put the book back
up on its shelf. She will say to herself,
"For that kind of money, I can get
my raincoat cleaned." And she will.

Ted Kooser


(BTW, April is National Poetry Month. )

http://www.poets.org/page.php/prmID/41

[sassanik]

So in my Jr year in high school I went to see "A Winters Tale" which IMO is one of the easier Shakespeare plays.

I sat next to two foot ball players, during the play they had the following conversation...

"Dude, if I like listen to the play but don't watch it I can understand it or if I watch the play and don't listen."

"Yeah man, I am just watching, I don't understand it when they talk."

*me slumping the chair and hoping to not be spotted with these two*

I think it is getting to the point where Shakespeare's English is really getting into the realm of a different language entirely. English is a still evolving language and seems to be changing very rapidly currently.

Amy

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by sassanik

I think it is getting to the point where Shakespeare's English is really getting into the realm of a different language entirely.

Curiously enough, the same thought occurs to me when I listen to American high-school students talking .

[Anthem]

Uhh, graphic novels (comic books or funny books for those of us who are not squeamish with our words and unafraid of the elite veneer) are awesome. I have only read about a dozen Shakespeare plays (mostly the tragedies and comedies) but any of them could be illustrated justly.

[cathie]

[QUOTE= Even worse, when we pander to their tastes(nothing wrong with personal taste, but it shouldn't be the basis of a curriculum), or allow them to read only what they will find enjoyable, we legitimize this anti-thinking perspective, that all that matters is what they find pleasurable and easy. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE= The most important reason you study Shakespeare, especially if you live in an English-speaking country, is that he is the greatest writer in the history of the language. [/QUOTE]

I have to agree. I certainly understand having difficulty understanding Shakespeare if English is not your first language, and Chaucer is even harder in my opinion, but I managed to struggle through it. Every persons experience is different, what might dissuade one person may spark a love in another.

I have been an avid reader from a young age, I read anything I could lay my hands on from Graeham Green to mills & boon romances.
At age 11 in school we started reading Shakespeare - A midsummer's nights dream actually. All of our grade started by reading the play. Breaking down the text understanding the basic plot.
I was blessed that the town where I grew up had an excellent playhouse, and Theatre companies. The whole grade went to a production of A Midsummer's Night's Dream, in which 'Puck' pranced on stage, in what can only be described as wide leather belts wrapped around his person, bondage style and rollerskates. And Titania 'court' wore gold lame disco shorts and sunglasses & rollerskates. Needless to say we were mesmerized.
(can still see the look of horror & embarrassment on my English Lit. teachers face)
But there was no way we would have been able to follow the nuances of the play if we had not studied and read the play beforehand.
When I was older we studied Hamlet & 'that Scottish play'. We were able to watch several films of the plays & I was blessed to be able to see both plays performed live 4 or 5 times by several different theatre groups. One being the Royal Shakespeare Company. Be it Manga, audio, film or live performance they are all great way to introduce a person to Shakespeare. But for one to truly appreciate the beauty and nuances of his work YOU HAVE TO READ THE PLAYS. In turn I gained a love of Theatre and the performing arts through being exposed to Shakespeare.


By the way, I love the quote by Russell.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Curiously enough, the same thought occurs to me when I listen to American high-school students talking .

[Love.Forever.]

I personally disliked reading Hamlet and King Lear, but I enjoyed reading Romeo and Juliet. In our English classes, we would all pick a character and read along in the play or act out the scenes. Good times.

[Quexos]

Romeo and Juliet huh ? interesting choice. Did you notice how Both Romeo and Juliet come first to each other, even over their families ? That's what I remember from that play. they loved each other and even their family did not come first, they came first to each other. So u can imagine how friends would totally not come first.
Hmm sorry I digress. I wonder why I said what I said

Originally Posted by Love.Forever.

I personally disliked reading Hamlet and King Lear, but I enjoyed reading Romeo and Juliet. In our English classes, we would all pick a character and read along in the play or act out the scenes. Good times.

[bevdeforges]

Reading Shakespeare isn't just about getting through the language to figure out the story. It isn't just about "reading" or "English" - but about the themes and the history and the human emotion contained in the stories. There's psychology and philosophy, and all the dirty jokes, too! And getting at that takes a good teacher, who can encourage discussion and point out the "good parts."

When we read Romeo and Juliet in school, our teacher (I think it was Mr. Kazarian, who taught both English and Social Studies) spent alot of time on the opening scene, which is usually cut in production these days because it seems to be out of place. In it, Romeo is wandering around with a friend of his, moaning and gnashing his teeth over some girl he has been madly in love with - I think her name was Rosalyn or something similar. A scene or two later, he sees Juliet and BANG, he's madly in love again and old Rosalyn is forgotten.

We had a LONG discussion about how Romeo and Juliet were probably only about 13 years old, and taking a long, hard look at that first scene really casts a very different light on the play. It's a much greater tragedy if you see it in light of the kind of puppy love that is so typical of 12 and 13 year olds.

Then, too, we read The Taming of the Shrew with Mr. Sullivan, who took great pains to point out the "dirty stuff" - and definitely piqued everyone's interest in the play. A great introduction to word play and double entendre (and some education in basic anatomy for a few of us!).

You read Shakespeare as a teenager because there is so much stuff there. If the archaic language is an obstacle, there are the dirty jokes, or the psychology or the existential issues ("to be or not to be") that are part and parcel of adolescence. But you need a great teacher to help you "get into it." I was lucky in that we had several really great teachers when I went to school.

[wyndslash]

@bev: definitely agree. a teacher can either make or break your interest.

when we took up romeo and juliet, we mostly focused on the element of haste ('haste makes waste') in the story

[crich70]

We didn't read Shakespeare itself but we did read at least one play in class when I was in 10th grade. Medea to be exact. Several of us were assigned parts. I got the part of Jason, "It seems I must reef up my sails against the tempest of your tongue."(he's talking to Medea whom he has betrayed in favor of a new wife.) We also saw the Count of Monte Cristo (Richard Chamberlain version). I wish we had had some Shakespeare myself. Not that the others were boring or anything. I like Shakespeare. R & J, Hamlet and Julius Caesar are among my favorites.
My mom had a different opinion when she was in High School. They read Julius Caesar as I understand it and she thought it boring at the time. Then yrs later she saw a movie version of it and things clicked better for her after that she said.

Originally Posted by wodin

Mrs. Hartwig, my high school English teacher made us read Macbeth, then we dissected it line by line in class. Being a typical teenager, I didn’t see the value in it; but as the years progress I have come to value that experience more and more.

However, I still don’t for the life of me understand what I could have possibly gotten out of Beowulf!