Court rejects Google Books settlement

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by charleski

I still haven't seen any convincing argument against a requirement for registration in order to maintain rights in a published work. Other forms of IP require it, and for two hundred years copyright did as well, so there is no 'natural' endowment to be considered*.
...
There's certainly room for compromise, and I'm open to the idea that copyright should not require registration for an initial period (say 20 years or so), since the creator is likely to remain vested in his or her creation during that period.

The big reason for allowing protection w/o registration is that copyrighted material, unlike patented & trademarked things, often needs to be marketed before it has proven commercial value. Patents aren't necessary until you've decided to make something to sell; trademarks are irrelevant if the public doesn't see them--but copyrighted material is often sent to a publisher (or magazine editor, or movie producer) in the hopes that it'll be found commercially viable.

An author can't afford to register, even at a token cost, every rough draft or story outline, in order to keep publishers from grabbing the submission from a slushpile & publishing it w/o permission. A photographer can't register each of a hundred photos before submitting them for consideration to a magazine. Even if they could all be registered at once, the time-delay involved is ridiculous.

I have no problems with copyright protection starting from the moment of creation (although I could really go for a requirement to affix a notice to things, to indicate who owns that copyright), and registration coming later, either in order to deal with a lawsuit, or after 20-50 years, to continue the monopoly on commercial exploitation.

And moving from our current situation, rather than the one that existed before copyright was attached to everything automatically, there's other issues--every blog post is currently copyrighted, so nobody can grab a set of them and publish "funniest anecdotes from the internet 2010" without permission. Changing the law back, would require either notifying all those people (!) that they need to put notices on their works, or making a rule that "content created between ~1989 and 2012 doesn't require a copyright notice; after that, works published, including on the web, without a notice, are in the public domain."

Of course, that immediately tangles into the Berne convention; countries still following it would not require that notice, and it'd bring up issues of "what country is this web content published in?" (Is it based on the location of the author? The author's ISP? The location of the servers of the web content host? If I post at MR, am I covered by Canadian copyright law, and when I post at Dreamwidth, by US copyright law?)

Is big tangled mess.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

The big reason for allowing protection w/o registration is that copyrighted material, unlike patented & trademarked things, often needs to be marketed before it has proven commercial value. Patents aren't necessary until you've decided to make something to sell; trademarks are irrelevant if the public doesn't see them--but copyrighted material is often sent to a publisher (or magazine editor, or movie producer) in the hopes that it'll be found commercially viable.

An author can't afford to register, even at a token cost, every rough draft or story outline, in order to keep publishers from grabbing the submission from a slushpile & publishing it w/o permission. A photographer can't register each of a hundred photos before submitting them for consideration to a magazine. Even if they could all be registered at once, the time-delay involved is ridiculous.

I have no problems with copyright protection starting from the moment of creation (although I could really go for a requirement to affix a notice to things, to indicate who owns that copyright), and registration coming later, either in order to deal with a lawsuit, or after 20-50 years, to continue the monopoly on commercial exploitation.

And moving from our current situation, rather than the one that existed before copyright was attached to everything automatically, there's other issues--every blog post is currently copyrighted, so nobody can grab a set of them and publish "funniest anecdotes from the internet 2010" without permission. Changing the law back, would require either notifying all those people (!) that they need to put notices on their works, or making a rule that "content created between ~1989 and 2012 doesn't require a copyright notice; after that, works published, including on the web, without a notice, are in the public domain."

Of course, that immediately tangles into the Berne convention; countries still following it would not require that notice, and it'd bring up issues of "what country is this web content published in?" (Is it based on the location of the author? The author's ISP? The location of the servers of the web content host? If I post at MR, am I covered by Canadian copyright law, and when I post at Dreamwidth, by US copyright law?)

Is big tangled mess.

May I suggest some practical answers to my viewpoint? Provide seed money to the copyright office to set up server farm for online submissions, and a return receipt verification for physical submissions. A "copyright pending" (like patent pending, until the copyright office finished the paperwork and issues the copyright. Is this so difficult to do?

As for existing art, a copyright is maintained until a certain date, with anything not submitted for copyright to fall into the public domain.

It's not insurmountable.

(I wonder whether somebody could invoke copyright to prevent a confession from being used...Hmmm...)

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

May I suggest some practical answers to my viewpoint? Provide seed money to the copyright office to set up server farm for online submissions, and a return receipt verification for physical submissions. A "copyright pending" (like patent pending, until the copyright office finished the paperwork and issues the copyright. Is this so difficult to do?

Do authors submit every stage of a novel? The rough notes & outline before submitting a request letter to an agent, the first two chapters & more detailed outline when they get accepted, the first draft before sending it to a publisher, the final just-before-print published version? Who pays for all these registrations? (If the answer is "the author," the result is going to be "no more books written by poor people." Or very few.)

The current reg system is ridiculously overburdened; the copyright office is drastically under-funded. Online registration has an 18-month-and-growing backlog. More money could fix that--but I guarantee there will not be enough to require registration of everything before publication.

Example: I have a blog. I have 7+ years of LiveJournal entries that have been imported to Dreamwidth. I have vague thoughts of consolidating some of those posts into a book someday--perhaps "Elf's philosophy of modern Paganism." Right now, I don't have to do anything to protect them from commercial exploitation by someone else. Require registration, and I have to register every.single.blog.post before I put it online. Every forum comment.

I chat freely in forums because I know that, if I come up with a particular compelling argument, a twist of understanding that really works, or if I am struck by poetic inspiration--I can save that post, that comment, and decide later if I want to publish it. Certainly, nobody else is allowed to exploit it without my permission. If registration is required before I get copyright protection, I'd stop participating in public forums. (And I'm sure, very few people would mind. I'm using myself as an example here--I know several dozen pro authors would also slam their blogs shut.)

Currently, and previously with the required-notice but not reg until later system, the copyright of drafts were subsumed into the final registered version. But if you get rid of copyright aside from formally registered items, that protection is gone--the author needs to register each different version. If he writes 4 different endings for a short story, trying to decide which one to print, he'll need to register all four--or risk that, if one gets found in his notes ten years later, someone can grab the alternate & publish it without his permission.

Our current business world needs copyright to work before formal registration; remove that protection and communication will grind to a halt while everyone figures out what they need or want to protect. A lot more private forums would show up, with requirement of signed contracts that you won't copy any of the contents elsewhere. Replacing law with private contracts is often a really bad idea (that's what brought us geo-restrictions and EULAs).

(I wonder whether somebody could invoke copyright to prevent a confession from being used...Hmmm...)

Only if it were written or recorded. But no--courts can enter entire books into evidence, allowing a copy of them to enter the public record. Use of a copy in a criminal investigation is generally considered a reasonable exception to copyright law. (Check against the four factors: how much does it affect the future marketability of the work? Does the copy serve the public interest?)

[kennyc]

Ralph, get back to work.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by kennyc

Ralph, get back to work.

Nice to know people are looking out for me.

But you're right, it's time I bid adieu to this place...

Y'all have a good time.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Nice to know people are looking out for me.

But you're right, it's time I bid adieu to this place...

Y'all have a good time.

.

[Giggleton]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

I chat freely in forums because I know that, if I come up with a particular compelling argument, a twist of understanding that really works, or if I am struck by poetic inspiration--I can save that post, that comment, and decide later if I want to publish it. Certainly, nobody else is allowed to exploit it without my permission. If registration is required before I get copyright protection, I'd stop participating in public forums. (And I'm sure, very few people would mind. I'm using myself as an example here--I know several dozen pro authors would also slam their blogs shut.)

Currently, and previously with the required-notice but not reg until later system, the copyright of drafts were subsumed into the final registered version. But if you get rid of copyright aside from formally registered items, that protection is gone--the author needs to register each different version. If he writes 4 different endings for a short story, trying to decide which one to print, he'll need to register all four--or risk that, if one gets found in his notes ten years later, someone can grab the alternate & publish it without his permission.

The universe is my school and I am always in recess, meaning I can freely use any of your forum posts for whatever reason I see fit. I doubt you would stop posting here if mobileread became a public domain style commons area, there is of course one way to find out...

Copyright in the end will become a footnote, a global historical footnote, but something that we will simply have to move beyond eventually.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

The universe is my school and I am always in recess, meaning I can freely use any of your forum posts for whatever reason I see fit. I doubt you would stop posting here if mobileread became a public domain style commons area, there is of course one way to find out...

Copyright in the end will become a footnote, a global historical footnote, but something that we will simply have to move beyond eventually.

Endless repetition won't make it come true. Copyright is needed more than ever, and (you are living proof) education has failed to instill respect for others' rights in the digital realm into a great number of people. Yes, changes will have to be made, not the ones you envision, though.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

The universe is my school and I am always in recess, meaning I can freely use any of your forum posts for whatever reason I see fit. I doubt you would stop posting here if mobileread became a public domain style commons area, there is of course one way to find out...

Copyright in the end will become a footnote, a global historical footnote, but something that we will simply have to move beyond eventually.

You are so naive.