People who want no DRM are impractical dreamers...

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by queentess

But see, retailers aren't allowed to discount ebooks. Why would I pay $16 for the hardcover (which I can promptly resell) or $13 for the ebook with DRM? I agree, $1-2 is likely too little. But expecting me to pay hardback prices for an ebook is extreme. How about a $10 ebook for a paperback that was published in 1992? Maybe $15 is more your cup of tea? Or maybe have to wait 3 months after the hardback is released, then pay $13? These are 3 examples of books I wanted to purchase and didn't due to price.


Usually including the word "ebook" or "download" is enough. If I Google "girl with the dragon tattoo ebook" I get 3 illegal hits on the first page of results.

Take an agency eBook priced at $7.99. Take an agency paperback priced at $7.99. Which is cheaper? The paperback is cheaper as I can get the paperback with a discount and the eBook I cannot. I am not stupid enough to think the eBook is priced the same. It's not. There are a lot of eBooks that are very close to or more expensive than the pBook edition.

As for the Google search, I added the word ePub and got the first 3 sites for illegal downloading. The other search was not like that due to finding a lot of hits about the movie.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

We do need DRM for one thing and without DRM, we lose this one thing and it is a big loss.

Without DRM, we lose library eBooks. There is no way to do it without DRM> We need the time limited DRM for library eBooks. So if we get rid of DRM 100%, we get rid of library eBooks. Does anyone think that if publishers do away with DRM, we will still have time limited DRM for libraries?

This is a good point.

If I had to choose between having no DRM on ebooks that are sold or having ebooks available from libraries, I'll go for having no DRM on ebooks that are sold.

But I would have thought that some method of enabling libraries to lend ebooks could be found, perhaps with custom hardware.

[Freeshadow]

I'm fine with the libraries limiting my usage - the book I get from them isn't mine.
by the same reasons I disagree with such treatment by a reseller. Because in this case the damned book has to be mine.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

This is a good point.

If I had to choose between having no DRM on ebooks that are sold or having ebooks available from libraries, I'll go for having no DRM on ebooks that are sold.

But I would have thought that some method of enabling libraries to lend ebooks could be found, perhaps with custom hardware.

I do not see why you need traditional DRM for libraries. Just have a minimum time of 2 weeks or so for lending a book and put some social DRM on the books.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

This is a good point.

If I had to choose between having no DRM on ebooks that are sold or having ebooks available from libraries, I'll go for having no DRM on ebooks that are sold.

But I would have thought that some method of enabling libraries to lend ebooks could be found, perhaps with custom hardware.

I don't see why they would need to. I can't see hardback books going away anytime ever. Even if libraries became their only customers there is enough of those to make a print run worthwhile.

[toddos]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

We do need DRM for one thing and without DRM, we lose this one thing and it is a big loss.

Without DRM, we lose library eBooks. There is no way to do it without DRM> We need the time limited DRM for library eBooks. So if we get rid of DRM 100%, we get rid of library eBooks. Does anyone think that if publishers do away with DRM, we will still have time limited DRM for libraries?

The music industry has already sorted this out.

Purchased music -> no DRM
Subscription music -> DRM

Zune, Rhapsody, and other services that offer an "all you can eat"-style subscription service will put DRM on the songs you download via the service (in Zune's case, these will be WMA files). If you choose to buy some songs from them on top of your subscription, those songs are generally DRM-free MP3s (there are still some holdouts that won't sell you a DRM-free copy, but by and large most purchased music has moved to DRM-free MP3s).

Thus libraries could still use DRM to enforce the "subscription" model (it's still a subscription model, it's just that your subscription fee is the amount you pay in taxes to support your local library district) while Amazon and other stores that actually sell you books could get rid of DRM.

[Penforhire]

JS, another resolution to the library dilemma is a dedicated library e-reader that you lend, with library-only access port. That assumes the hardware becomes much cheaper and more durable. But it is another long-term answer.

[toddos]

Originally Posted by Penforhire

JS, another resolution to the library dilemma is a dedicated library e-reader that you lend, with library-only access port. That assumes the hardware becomes much cheaper and more durable. But it is another long-term answer.

If you put hardware in the hands of people, it will get hacked. Also, this requires going to the library physically, at which point you may as well just get a paper book (also, limits the ability for libraries to sell out-of-district access).

This approach sounds like the old CVS "disposable" digital camera hack. They sold cheap digital cameras and they expected you to drop it off when it was "full", pay them to extract your pictures/videos, and buy another $30 disposable. Of course as soon as people had the hardware it was a trivial task to hack it so that you could extract the contents yourself and reuse the camera as much as you like, thus giving you a full digital camera for only $30. This would be a little different if you're expected to return the reader itself, but I'm sure someone would come up with a hack that leaves no fingerprints such that you could rip the book off the device leaving it undamaged in the process.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by toddos

This would be a little different if you're expected to return the reader itself, but I'm sure someone would come up with a hack that leaves no fingerprints such that you could rip the book off the device leaving it undamaged in the process.

That doesn't matter. If people want to break the rules and keep library ebooks at the moment, they only need to strip the DRM anyway.

It's certainly not something I would ever encourage or condone.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by jgaiser

As someone who lives behind a dialup connection, with little chance of getting broadband anytime soon, the Cloud is pretty worthless to me and my neighbors.

If was forced to have all my books in the Cloud I would be very upset.

I'll be going on a cruise later this year. I won't have net access. Having my eBooks on a cloud would be 100% useless. So the could idea is out. It was a bad idea whoever first thought of it.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I'll be going on a cruise later this year. I won't have net access. Having my eBooks on a cloud would be 100% useless. So the could idea is out. It was a bad idea whoever first thought of it.

How could you possibly book a cruise that doesn't provide wi-fi!

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Didn't say it was no problem, mate. I said it was no INSURMOUNTABLE problem. Indeed, its more of an inconvenience, more on the level of you losing your warranty on a Circuit City product when CC goes out of business.

I have a printer/fax that was bought at CC, I can still use it even though CC folded. Oh and I get the manufacturer's warranty so I was covered (warranty is up)

I have an eBook bought at CyberRead in Mobipocket format. I've since moved to a new computer. The Mobipocket eBooks I bought using my previous computer's PID no longer allow me access to them. How is that an inconvenience? That means that the only way I have access to these eBooks is to buy them again and at a higher cost.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by stonetools

And I sincerely hope that Amazon, famed for its customer service, worked with JSWolf to resolve the problem. Indeed, we did not hear from JSWolf that they simply blew him off. I wait to hear the rest of the story.

I didn't ave a problem since I was able to strip the DRM. But if I had been unable to strip the DRM, any Mobipocket eBooks I had purchased from Amazon and Paperback Digital, I'd be screwed, There was no recompense as Amazon stopped selling the eBooks and Paperback Digital went out of business. There were lots of outcrys when Amazon stopped selling eBooks and people needed to update the DRM because they were moving to a new computer.

When Adobe stopped supporting the previous DRM for PDF, a lot of people lost access to their legally purchased content.

Mobipocket is tied to the computer. So when you change computers or even the OS, you will lose your PID and access to your content unless you are able to go back to where you bought it and put in the new PID. So there are lots of orphaned Mobipocket eBooks now that Amazon & Paperback Digital stopped or folded. There will be more unusable content now that CyberRead has folded.

These are impossible situations to solve unless you can strip the DRM. With the DRM in place there are lots of eBooks that are just disk space wasting files.

Tell me how DRM is a good thing in these situations? What happens is that people are OK with the content they've purchased until the DRM bites them in the ass. Then they go looking on the net for it without DRM. So this is a case of DRM causing a rise in eBook sharing.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by toddos

Let's not forget that removing DRM is currently illegal in the US (thank you, DMCA). So it's worse than what you stated. This scenario is only surmountable if you're willing to become a felon by removing DRM.

Do you really pay attention to what goes on on MR? Your statement leads me to believe you don't actually read what's on MR.

We've been over this issue many times.

We cannot say that stripping DRM in the USA is illegal. It's a gray area. We have the DMCA and it has exceptions. So we know according to the DMCA, if you fall under the exception, stripping DRM is legal. We also have fair use exception to the copyright. So under fair use, stripping DRM is legal. Also, we do not know if DRM trumps fair use or does fair use trump DMCA. So until this goes to a court of law, it will remain a gray area.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by wodin

Yes, I remember Lotus 1-2-3. Anyone with a binary editor (MS-Dos came with debug.com) and a little knowledge could edit the machine code and flip one bit and Walla! DRM disabled!

That being said, the federal government put a moratorium on the purchase of any copy protected software, and SuperCalc became an instant success. Lotus soon changed their tune and published a non copy protected version, but was never able to recover. They were eventually bought by IBM.

DRM/copy protection killed Lotus 1-2-3. It also caused a lot of problems for a lot of businesses. All because of DRM/copy protection. Was it worth it? No.