People who want no DRM are impractical dreamers... - Page 37

Piper_ · 03-25-2011, 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdurrant

I can't imagine any DRM system that doesn't impose unreasonable restrictions on the use of the digital files to which it's applied.

Well, one. 'Social' DRM, where the purchaser's name is put into metadata in the ebook, along with useful stuff like date of purchase, and from whom the book was purchased. But with no other restrictions or encryption.

I would not object to such a system. In fact, I would find it very useful.

I've been itching to say that all week, because if publishers really only cared about stopping heavy casual sharing as stone says, that would be enough. I feared bringing it up would open a can of worms.

But since you said it first...

I would be happy with that method too. A sort of receipt embedded in the book.

I could read my books on any device and share them in the same limited way as I do my pbooks - with my trusted family and best friends.

It wouldn't be any easier to remove than the current DRM, and people who are stopped by not wanting to strip wouldn't be likely to plop them out there on Facebook with their names etc in them.

I don't think they'll go for it, because they actually want to stop the same level of sharing we do with pbooks.

Piper_ · 03-25-2011, 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HansTWN

I still think watermarking would be the way to go. Sure, this could be removed, too. But you can't stop those pirates. And they will never pay, period. So it makes sense just to write them off. Pirates don't matter in this equation.

However, to the general public, if you buy a watermarked file you are responsible. It can be traced back to the original buyer. So you will only give it to those you consider responsible, too.

Exactly.

TheSFReader · 03-25-2011, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Well, one. 'Social' DRM, where the purchaser's name is put into metadata in the ebook, along with useful stuff like date of purchase, and from whom the book was purchased. But with no other restrictions or encryption.

I would not object to such a system. In fact, I would find it very useful.

Ditto, while I have a HARD view on DRMs in general, I don't consider such a "watermarking" as a kind of DRM : it doesn't restrict on any "legitimate" use of the ebook, while keeping "illigitimate" uses at least partially in check.

However, the kind of data that would be inserted into that watermarking, and the way the data is added into the ebook can become problematic : I wouldn't want my "Credit card number" in there

As well, adding the purchaser's info in the metadata only seems quite weak a protection since it can be updated a little bit too easily.
Perhaps the watermark info should be added more deeply on the ebook.

EowynCarter · 03-25-2011, 06:09 AM

I bought a pdf with watermarking. While O'reilly's watermarking is small, that one was a serious disturbance to reading.
It denatures the book. i don't think the author wrote "licensed to EowynCarter" in his book.

Those how paid for the books are NOT pirates. They shouldn't be treated as such. I'm tired of being "punished" for others actions. DRM don't bother pirates a second, they are, however, a serious problem for those honest enough to pay for the book.

pdurrant · 03-25-2011, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSFReader

As well, adding the purchaser's info in the metadata only seems quite weak a protection since it can be updated a little bit too easily.
Perhaps the watermark info should be added more deeply on the ebook.

I wouldn't mind also having a page at the front of the book, but that starts to become technically a little bit more complex.

Any social DRM added to a digital file can be removed with sufficient effort, and with almost no effort with the appropriate software. Those who want to remove it will do so no matter what, so there's no point in making it intrusive.

I would object to (say) my name being displayed on every page in a header or footer — too distracting while reading.

pdurrant · 03-25-2011, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EowynCarter

I bought a pdf with watermarking. While O'reilly's watermarking is small, that one was a serious disturbance to reading.
It denatures the book. i don't think the author wrote "licensed to EowynCarter" in his book.

Those how paid for the books are NOT pirates. They shouldn't be treated as such. I'm tired of being "punished" for others actions.

Ouch. A 'watermark' added to every page, even if just in header or footer, isn't something I'd like.

EowynCarter · 03-25-2011, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Ouch. A 'watermark' added to every page, even if just in header or footer, isn't something I'd like.

Yeap. that was exactly it. O'reilly watermark is on most pages too, but it's light, and i actually didn't saw it at first.

TheSFReader · 03-25-2011, 06:23 AM

I know that with specific tailored tools any watermarking can be removed however

What about an additional page just after the cover with something like : "EBook sold to [...] lending authorized withing the close family and friends [...] some invisible watermarking inserted into the book" and some invisible to the reader marks ("html" comments "? ) inserted in the content ?

pdurrant · 03-25-2011, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSFReader

I know that with specific tailored tools any watermarking can be removed however

What about an additional page just after the cover with something like : "EBook sold to [...] lending authorized withing the close family and friends [...] some invisible watermarking inserted into the book" and some invisible to the reader marks ("html" comments "? ) inserted in the content ?

There's no need to make any social DRM complex or pervasive throughout a book.

People will either remove it or not. The complexity of removal is unlikely to make any difference to that.

mr ploppy · 03-25-2011, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdurrant

I wouldn't mind also having a page at the front of the book, but that starts to become technically a little bit more complex.

Any social DRM added to a digital file can be removed with sufficient effort, and with almost no effort with the appropriate software. Those who want to remove it will do so no matter what, so there's no point in making it intrusive.

I would object to (say) my name being displayed on every page in a header or footer — too distracting while reading.

If you were going to do that, the best place to put it would be hidden in the cover image (steganography). Not many people would think of looking there.

kennyc · 03-25-2011, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

If you were going to do that, the best place to put it would be hidden in the cover image (steganography). Not many people would think of looking there.

like this:

pdurrant · 03-25-2011, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

If you were going to do that, the best place to put it would be hidden in the cover image (steganography). Not many people would think of looking there.

For the social DRM to prevent sharing, rather than detect sharing, software would have to display the personal info. The location it was stored would soon be found, even if stored in a cover picture.

There's really no need to make it complex. Social DRM isn't intended to be proof against determined removal efforts, only to discourage people from sharing the books they buy widely.

Elfwreck · 03-25-2011, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Ouch. A 'watermark' added to every page, even if just in header or footer, isn't something I'd like.

I put up with watermarked PDFs from drivethrurpg.com and the related sites, but I often wind up stripping the lock & removing the watermarks, because locked PDFs can't be edited. In order to remove the white borders to make them more readable on my Sony, I have to remove the lock; in order to keep my name & order # from interfering with the reflow, if I'm going to use it, I have to remove it.

If I were really clever, I'd look for a script to do this; as it is, I just click through one page at a time & remove it manually.

John F · 03-25-2011, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stonetools

On #1, you are talking about rare instances of stores shutting down. ...

Stonetools, do you have a Sony and an LRX ebook (Sony's DRM)?

Try this experiment. Do a hard reset, try to read the ebook. Do you think you'll be able to read it?

JSWolf · 03-25-2011, 02:33 PM

We do need DRM for one thing and without DRM, we lose this one thing and it is a big loss.

Without DRM, we lose library eBooks. There is no way to do it without DRM> We need the time limited DRM for library eBooks. So if we get rid of DRM 100%, we get rid of library eBooks. Does anyone think that if publishers do away with DRM, we will still have time limited DRM for libraries?

03-25-2011, 06:09 AM	#544
EowynCarter Wizard Posts: 4,337 Karma: 4000000 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Paris Device: Cybooks; Sony PRS-T1	I bought a pdf with watermarking. While O'reilly's watermarking is small, that one was a serious disturbance to reading. It denatures the book. i don't think the author wrote "licensed to EowynCarter" in his book. Those how paid for the books are NOT pirates. They shouldn't be treated as such. I'm tired of being "punished" for others actions. DRM don't bother pirates a second, they are, however, a serious problem for those honest enough to pay for the book. Last edited by EowynCarter; 03-25-2011 at 06:13 AM.

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03-25-2011, 06:23 AM	#548
TheSFReader Groupie Posts: 172 Karma: 161634 Join Date: Dec 2010 Device: Nook	I know that with specific tailored tools any watermarking can be removed however What about an additional page just after the cover with something like : "EBook sold to [...] lending authorized withing the close family and friends [...] some invisible watermarking inserted into the book" and some invisible to the reader marks ("html" comments "? ) inserted in the content ?

03-25-2011, 02:33 PM	#555
JSWolf Resident Curmudgeon Posts: 79,877 Karma: 146918083 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3	We do need DRM for one thing and without DRM, we lose this one thing and it is a big loss. Without DRM, we lose library eBooks. There is no way to do it without DRM> We need the time limited DRM for library eBooks. So if we get rid of DRM 100%, we get rid of library eBooks. Does anyone think that if publishers do away with DRM, we will still have time limited DRM for libraries?