Germany: eBooks not yet a mass market product

[Freeshadow]

Feylamia you are wrong
its not the coding part that's right - there are po editors for all major systems.

its always grammar. - not every language has the same level of flexing, treats numerals, adjectivs and adverbs the same way, etc.
some have no single word vocabulary for a term you need in your UI, Some differ extrtemely in wordlenghts (messing up your UI's optics. etc.

And keep in mind: just because someone can speak language A and B it doesn't actually mean he is good at, or even able to translating between them.

"Übersetzen ist der Versuch mit gefesselten Beinen Tango zu tanzen." - M. Reich Ranicki

[Feylamia]

Originally Posted by Freeshadow

Feylamia you are wrong

No, I am not. I never implied that programmers and "translators" (this really is the wrong word here, we're talking localization, not translation) didn't have to work together.
I know it can be annoying to localize stuff, but I really don't feel it is as big a deal as some people make it out to be. I'm fully aware that localization can only be efficient when people from different trades work together well.
It is not the technical limits that makes localization tough for many projects - it is the fact that often times the coders and graphic designers never even sat down with the "translators". If people worked together properly, it shouldn't be as hard.


"Hör mir auf mit Reich-Ranicki, der Mann nervt. (Auch wenn er an der Stelle Recht hat - gute Übersetzungen sind sehr, sehr selten.)" - F. eylamia

[karunaji]

There is nothing what localization team can do when the original message is written for a different audience. It is naive to think that talented translators will fix it. It is not their job and they have no skills to do it. This myth is very strong in the business world, unfortunately.

[Feylamia]

I don't come from a business background but one in computational linguistics. Localization/internationalization deals with translation, yes, but other vital parts are cultural adjustments and writing conventions (e.g. diferent time formats). This wikipedia article covers the subject pretty nicely.

[Kali Yuga]

"Localization" is not the same thing as "translation."

What Feylamia is talking about is making sure that the software for an ebook reader will work for a specific language. E.g. if you want to sell a Kindle for Russian users, you'd need to change the language of the menus, perhaps remap the keyboard (as well as relabel it), etc.

This has nothing to do with translating a work from one language to another.

As such, I seriously doubt that adapting a Kindle to properly show Russian texts would be a barrier to Amazon entering the Russian market. The real issues will be:

• How lucrative is the Russian ebook market, compared to others (assuming the more profitable markets will be first in line for a roll-out)
• How will the Russian publishers react, i.e. will they play along or kick and scream
• How badly will piracy erode profits


Anyway, back on topic....

"Standards" are not going to fix anything or grow the market.

The reason why you need a full platform is because you need things to Just Work. You need the ebook reader to be fairly easy to use; you need it to be easy to buy content; you need it to be easy to get content onto the device. Nowadays you also need to smoothly coordinate the information across multiple devices. None of this is the job of a "standard;" rather it's a description of a "platform."

You also need someone with enough muscle and a strong enough incentive to go up against many entrenched entities (publishers, booksellers, government agencies) that have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. No standard, or standards agency, is going to do that.

I've found that generally speaking, most people don't know about, let alone care about, file format when it comes to digital content. You may care, and have valid reasons to care, but if the public doesn't care then it won't matter.

[karunaji]

Locales are frameworks that helps to maintain proper national conventions. It is easier for developer to use the predefined sets instead of implementing all features themselves. They are very limited though. Freeshadow mentioned numerals and I haven't seen a localized software (except Skype) that would treat Latvian numbers properly when those numerals ending with 1, i.e., 21, 31, etc. (except 11) takes a noun in singular.

It can also contain mistakes. For example, Microsoft LV locale contains strange quotation marks („”) which are not used in Latvian. One would think that after so many years and new Windows versions someone would have corrected this mistake. But no, it is still there on my Word 2010. It is not that many readers would notice a difference but what is surprising that I rarely see local word documents with these incorrect quotations marks. Some institutional style guides mention this issue and ways how to correct the quotes so I guess that even the lowest level of data entry clerks know about this.

[karunaji]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

• How lucrative is the Russian ebook market, compared to others (assuming the more profitable markets will be first in line for a roll-out)
• How will the Russian publishers react, i.e. will they play along or kick and scream
• How badly will piracy erode profits

These are good points. There are certainly a vast market in Russia for ebooks. If I think about this, most Russian I know have been reading books on computer all the time. And buying and reading paper books as well.

Currently the paper book market is undergoing the same issues as in the US. It is slowly shrinking and publishers lack funds to make investments in ebook marketing.

"Standards" are not going to fix anything or grow the market.

It definitely worked for GSM networks.

The reason why you need a full platform is because you need things to Just Work.

What "just works" may be different things to different people. American may be perfectly happy with long term contracts, single book store who you have entrusted your credit card to and so on. Russians won't trust such system and no single vendor is capable in transforming online commerce of a big country in short time. Prepaid SIM cards worked better in Latvia but I don't know what would work for e-books. Probably cheap e-ink readers

You need the ebook reader to be fairly easy to use; you need it to be easy to buy content; you need it to be easy to get content onto the device.
Nowadays you also need to smoothly coordinate the information across multiple devices.

Absolutely agree.

None of this is the job of a "standard;" rather it's a description of a "platform."

I am not sure what you mean with "platform". I don't expect any sweeping changes in the current level of technology but interoperability between different devices and different content sellers is definitely required and it cannot be done without some standards, so to speak.

I've found that generally speaking, most people don't know about, let alone care about, file format when it comes to digital content. You may care, and have valid reasons to care, but if the public doesn't care then it won't matter.

It is true most people can't explain the difference but it doesn't mean that it is meaningless. I can't explain why I like e-ink better than LCD either but I prefer the former over the later. Aesthetics play very important role. Even the color and form of packaging have national preferences.

[Freeshadow]

karunaji since I'm polish native speaker I know about some of the troubles slavic<->indoeuropean rooted languages thus my support of your difficulty claim

[AprilHare]

Sollte Deutschen haben einen besseren Zugang zu eBooks?

Should Germans have better access to ebooks?

[Feylamia]

Hm, I don't think access to ebooks is an issue, tbh. All of the big book stores offer ebooks.

Germans tend to want to really own the stuff they buy, they are very slow to adopt any sort of rental models and they want to be able to use their stuff on all their devices. So I think DRM is plaguing the market more than availability issues.

[Freeshadow]

feel free to replace "Germans" with "autonomous thinking consuments", and I'll sign that

[Kali Yuga]

Originally Posted by karunaji

I am not sure what you mean with "platform".

I mean a "unified experience."

iOS and Kindle are "platforms." It's not just a communication standard (e.g. GSM) or a type of hardware (e.g. eInk). It's an entire package that includes the hardware, the software, an easy way to procure and receive content, and a way to coordinate the content across multiple devices.

In other words, it's an experience that easy enough that your grandmother can get the hang of it fairly quickly.

An easy user experience, in my opinion, is what really needs to be built in order for ebooks to catch on. I am not aware of any standards body that is able to put together an entire system like this, let alone enforce it.

It might be possible that at some future point in time, someone will put together an Android-based eInk tablet that can access multiple stores on one device (e.g. Amazon, Nook, custom apps etc). But I don't think even that would do nearly as much to promote ebooks as a major retailer getting its hands dirty and dragging everyone into the ebook market, as they did in the US.

Standards may be beneficial, but I don't think the IDPF is really going to do the hard work that is required to promote ebooks in Germany, let alone dozens of nations around the world. Amazon and Apple, who have international businesses and strong motives, are much more likely to do what's needed, without the same baggage as the publishers, authors, booksellers and politicians who try to protect their constituents.

Originally Posted by karunaji

It is true most people can't explain the difference but it doesn't mean that it is meaningless. I can't explain why I like e-ink better than LCD either but I prefer the former over the later....

Just to be clear, I'm referring to file format, as in MOBI vs ePub.

I would agree that the difference in file formats is not "meaningless" or devoid of implications. Most people, for example, don't care who manufactures the spark plugs or the battery in their car; they care that it works. In the same way, the general public doesn't know or care about file formats; they care about price and availability.

[Poppaea]

Originally Posted by AprilHare

Sollte Deutschen haben einen besseren Zugang zu eBooks?

Should Germans have better access to ebooks?

Originally Posted by Feylamia

Hm, I don't think access to ebooks is an issue, tbh. All of the big book stores offer ebooks.

Germans tend to want to really own the stuff they buy, they are very slow to adopt any sort of rental models and they want to be able to use their stuff on all their devices. So I think DRM is plaguing the market more than availability issues.

For me this is simply not true! I couldn't care less about DRM. For the last 20 years I have been giving away books to libraries, hospitals, friends and a non profit organization, simply I could not store them because until today I have read approximatly 4,500 to 5,000 books. As I buy them to entertain me, not other people I don't care if others are able to read my books or not.

But it is a problem to get the stuff I want to get. Yes, there are eBookShops all over the place but their offers are meagre. For example, S.Fischer Verlag publishes about 5,000 books and has turned only 550 of them into ebooks up to now. Same is true for everyone else. Most books are annoyingly bad made. There are the page number strewn into the text of the 3 Hans Falladas I bought the other day from AufbauVerlag. I pay the same price for their ebooks as for their pbooks and get a piece of crap for my money!

SuhrkampVerlag has an edition of Marcel Prousts 'Lost Time' translated and annotated by Luzius Keller, a highly acclaimed Proust scholar. I have two possibilities: Either I buy the pbooks (7) smythe-sewn, clothbound for 128€ or I buy the ebooks (all 7) for 128€, now 110€. I won't be able to tap onto the footnotes to read them easily as, as stated by the editor of Suhrkamp in an email to me, it was their first ebook *yes, well*, but that does not prevent them from charging 110€ anyway. The paperbacks are 98€ btw!

I would love to buy Lion Feuchtwanger, but his books are not available as ebooks. I wrote an email to his publishers asking why they don't sell them as ebooks and why I can't search for ebooks on their website, but haven't received any answer.

Nabokovs publishers told me they have difficulties with foreign rights and thus are not able to sell Lolita as an ebook. How come? I wanted to buy the German translation, whats foreign with that?

Where can I buy Musil or Heimito von Doderer? Where do I get a copy of Fernando Pessoa?

There is none of the new highly praised translations of Stendhal, Tolstoi, Balzac or Laclos to be bought.

No, I want to spend but in the end, they just drive me into piracy instead of making me buy something!

[karunaji]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

An easy user experience, in my opinion, is what really needs to be built in order for ebooks to catch on.
...
It might be possible that at some future point in time, someone will put together an Android-based eInk tablet that can access multiple stores on one device (e.g. Amazon, Nook, custom apps etc). But I don't think even that would do nearly as much to promote ebooks as a major retailer getting its hands dirty and dragging everyone into the ebook market, as they did in the US.

I still think that in former USSR the greatest hurdle is high device prices. My grandmother could not afford it. Most working people in Latvian cannot. My friend in Ukraine is an avid reader on computer and/or cellphone while commuting. She recently asked for advice in selecting a better cell phone with bigger screen for more comfortable reading. But anything above $50 is out of question when one earns only $200 per month.

Nothing beats paper books which generally cost $1-5 in Ukraine.

Americans prefer foolproof platform because they are always in hurry and have no time to sit down and figure it out. In former USSR it is less of a problem as people are used to complicated transactions. They will ask others to help when something is not clear. In fact, they expect things to be somewhat complicated. If they are too simple it smells like fraud.

Currently Latvia is taking census and everybody who can is invited to do it online. It requires identification via one of 5 five biggest online banking systems. Initially it was designed to identify subjects by passport number but this option was removed after paranoid outcries that passport data is not secure as passport copies could be found on the internet. So far about 30% of population have completed census using online banking identification which requires bank issued code calculators or code cards. If they can do online banking, then could also load e-readers with books.

Amazon and Apple, who have international businesses and strong motives, are much more likely to do what's needed, without the same baggage as the publishers, authors, booksellers and politicians who try to protect their constituents.

It seems that Amazon might be subsidizing Kindles as no other equivalent readers this cheap are available. It is a good move but they made a mistake when they charged extra $2 for international buyers even if they had only a WiFi model.

Apple, however, is out of reach for most people in Latvia. When one reads Latvian IT blogs which discusses iPhones, iPads etc., one might think that they are almost as popular as in the US. It is a fallacy because in every poor country there is also a segment of population that speaks good English and have higher income and can afford to buy new gadgets. Companies who target this income level, see great sales initially but when this segment is saturated, they hit the ceiling and remain a niche product. In my closest circle of friends or relatives, no one has iPhone although some of them use smartphones.

That's why initially CDMA networks seemed to mirror their success in the US but later had to cede to prepaid cards. I still remember how the first network operator announced that they will never, never sell prepaid plans because that encourages cellphone theft, are less convenient, calls per minute are more costly etc. And then to turn 180 degrees one year later when their new competitor was winning all new clients.

[CommonReader]

Originally Posted by Poppaea

I would love to buy Lion Feuchtwanger, but his books are not available as ebooks. I wrote an email to his publishers asking why they don't sell them as ebooks and why I can't search for ebooks on their website, but haven't received any answer.

Nabokovs publishers told me they have difficulties with foreign rights and thus are not able to sell Lolita as an ebook. How come? I wanted to buy the German translation, whats foreign with that?

Where can I buy Musil or Heimito von Doderer? Where do I get a copy of Fernando Pessoa?

Here again we have the absurd situation that books by Feuchtwanger, Musil and Pessoa (in German) are easily available as pirated material in high quality PDFs, yet not as legal ebook.