People who want no DRM are impractical dreamers...

[EowynCarter]

Mobile Read devotees really ARE the cognoscenti and that you are being anoyed and angered by things that the ordinary ebook reader isn't even aware of.

My sister is quitte geeky, and techy savvy. She owns an illiad. One day she buy a pdf, that refuses to open on the illiad. She didn't though pdf *could* be with drm....
Got myself caught by ADE, because i downloaded a book without authorizing the computer first. ADE warns clearly at install, but i skipped that part, having no intention to download a book at that moment. And had totally forgotten about the warning when i open ADE to download a book...
If techy savvy people still managed to get caught, probability is that the average user will have the drm slapping him in the face at some point.

Fighting piracy being with not discouraging buyers.

[stonetools]

Because my opinion is based on solid data.

THey have looked at the same data and come to a different conclusion.

OK, let's sum up.
We know of one small genre publisher who has had success offering non DRMED work (Baen
There is a one publisher of niche nonfiction is is successful offering non DRMED work (O'Reilly)
There are a handful of authors who make a living offering non DRM work. ( Most of those apparently publish in the proprietary Kindle format and apparently make their sales for reading on a closed device, but let that pass)

This is not a significant record upon which to base a major gamble like dropping DRM.

THose arguing for the gamble argue the following:

1. DRM is really annoying to us experts.
2.Large scale casual sharing won't happen ( because nobody likes getting emailed free copies of bestsellers, I guess).
3.Even if it does does happen, it will generate more sales of obscure books. What about its effect on bestsellers?-Er, have I told you DRM is REALLY annoying?).
4. A tiny number of authors and publishers have made a living in niche markets offering non DRM work. Whats the evidence that going without DRM will work on a larger scale? Well, what's the evidence It WON"T work? Hey, lets give it a go, cause, you know, what could go wrong?
5. People could lose their books because some store could go out of business! Well, wouldn't it be easy to strip DRM in that emergency situation? Well yes, but that's not the point.
5. DRM is really, really, REALLY annoying.


Based on this, its obvious to me why publishers aren't leaping into the dark. I think the better approach would be to allay the concerns of the digerati by pressing for a better DRM regime-but that really won't satisfy the purists. Anyway, I think there really isn't much more to say about the answer to my question. We just don't know, and when people don't know, they opt for the status quo.


In this article

[URL="http://www.idealog.com/blog/what-the-powers-that-be-think-about-drm-and-an-explanation-of-the-cloud#"/URL]

at least one publisher( and the poster,) thinks the solution is to move everything to the cloud . Apparently, HTML 5.0 will allow the offline reading of ebooks stored in the cloud, so you can read ebooks without requiring a persistent wifi or cellular connection. Maybe that's solution.

Discuss.

[OtterBooks]

Originally Posted by toddos

DRM issues certainly have hurt large numbers of people in the past, and are likely to hurt many, many more in the future. Any time a store that uses DRM shuts down, customers get hurt. What about people who bought ebooks from Amazon prior to the Kindle launch? (yes, Amazon sold DRMed ebooks before the Kindle, and then they shut that down, screwing everybody who hadn't liberated their books) What about people who bought music from MSN Music or any of the other PlaysForSure providers when Microsoft shut down PlaysForSure in favor of Zune? Borders is on the brink of death and Barnes & Noble isn't far behind. What's going to happen to ebook customers of theirs when they go away. Even if you're an Amazon or Apple customer, you're not safe. Amazon has already proven that directly, as has Microsoft (twice! when they killed support for their .lit format and stores using that shut down). You're not safe even buying from the big guys.

I would hope that something is put in place to assist those who bought books from large retailers that went (or will go) belly-up, and if not, that's a genuine concern. I'm no universal fan of DRM (I feel DRM in products like computer games has been oppressive and counterproductive). I don't have an "I <3 DRM" bumper sticker, I just feel that for most consumers picking up on the ebook technology in today's market, DRM is largely invisible. We can speculate what-ifs, and if a big retailer goes out of business without making changes to allow the continued use of their books (I dont know much about the music side of this), then I'll take to the streets with ya. Figuratively. My what-if includes the likeliness that considering how mainstream the market has become, something will be done to prevent people getting shafted.

I mean, is DRM even valid of the rights holder of that DRM no longer exists? I don't think they would just cut and run without releasing those rights somehow. One could argue that DRM needs to be standardized across platforms, which seems reasonable. I understand criticism of its application, but not its very existence.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Look , the success of Baen is a wonderful thing, but so long as its the ONLY significant success, well, its a hard thing to bet a whole industry, that supports millions of authors and related personnel, on a model that hasn't enjoyed widespread success.

Baen is not the only success; it's just the first one, and the one that proves its methods are viable over time. Several other science fiction publishing houses are following in their footsteps including Double Dragon, Apex, and Angry Robot.

O'Reilly's been publishing computer ebooks without DRM for 2 1/2 years, and they've seen increases in sales, and bigger e-increases than print losses. After 18 months, their ebook sales had more than doubled.

Several romance & erotica publishers are DRM-free: Samhain, Torquere, Loose Id, Carina (Harlequin's new digital line), Dreamspinner, Circlet (science fiction & fantasy erotica), Ellora's Cave, Amber Quill and dozens of others... these are all going strong.

General publishers that are offering non-DRM'd ebooks include BeWrite, AKW, BooksforaBuck, and Zumaya, and a growing number of tiny companies that are, apparently, making a living selling non-DRM'd ebooks.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by OtterBooks

I haven't seen any such data, but I'm open to its existence. The only accounts of DRM hindrance I've heard come from people who own multiple ereader platforms, a minority of enthusiasts I've only witnessed on these forums, many of whom generally strip DRM anyway.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital...t#Obsolescence

In the ebook world there have been three major incidents, none of which have involved companies going out of business:

Amazon dropped support for PDF and LIT files.
Fictionwise lost access to Overdrive Mobipocket files.
Adobe dropped support for Content Server 3 PDFs.

And there's been a minor incident for ePubs:
On November 19th, 2010, the HarperCollins ebookstore closed down. When Adobe Content Server 4 eventually goes away, those ePubs purchased from the store may well become unreadable on new devices/installations.

Oh - and there's the CyberRead ebook store closure.


And then there's all the DRMed music that's become unusable, or threatens to become unusable....


When we say that DRM might prevent you accessing your books in the future, this isn't just a theoretical possibility, it has happened several times in the past, and will probably happen again. But next time, many more people will be affected.

[EowynCarter]

at least one publisher( and the poster,) thinks the solution is to move everything to the cloud . Apparently, HTML 5.0 will allow the offline reading of ebooks stored in the cloud, so you can read ebooks without requiring a persistent wifi or cellular connection. Maybe that's solution.

Might be good for rental system.
But when I buy a book, I expect the file to be on my hard drive. Mine to read with wathever device I want, anytime I want.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by stonetools

OK, let's sum up.

You haven't offered a shred of evidence and you ignore any evidence that's put forward.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Apparently, HTML 5.0 will allow the offline reading of ebooks stored in the cloud, so you can read ebooks without requiring a persistent wifi or cellular connection. Maybe that's solution.

Discuss.

When that happens expect a MASSIVE increase in piracy. Price isn't the only incentive for piracy, convenience plays a big part too. Make the legitimate product vastly inferior to the pirate product and the only people who will be surprised when everyone chooses the pirate product will be the publishers.

[stonetools]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

You haven't offered a shred of evidence and you ignore any evidence that's put forward.

I did offer evidence, but you rejected it. That's OK, just don't mis-state the record by stating that I offered no evidence.I considered your evidence and found it unconvincing. Note that I did not lie by saying that you did not offer evidence. Thanks in advance for not muddying the record with incorrect rhetoric.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by stonetools

OK, let's sum up.
We know of one small genre publisher who has had success offering non DRMED work (Baen
There is a one publisher of niche nonfiction is is successful offering non DRMED work (O'Reilly)
There are a handful of authors who make a living offering non DRM work. ( Most of those apparently publish in the proprietary Kindle format and apparently make their sales for reading on a closed device, but let that pass)

This is not a significant record upon which to base a major gamble like dropping DRM.

1) We know of dozens of other publishers, and many individual authors, who are achieving financial stability & success without DRM.
2) Why isn't it enough of a record? Is there any statistical data showing that DRM increases sales?

what-the-powers-that-be-think-about-drm-and-an-explanation-of-the-cloud
at least one publisher (and the poster,) thinks the solution is to move everything to the cloud. Apparently, HTML 5.0 will allow the offline reading of ebooks stored in the cloud, so you can read ebooks without requiring a persistent wifi or cellular connection. Maybe that's solution.

Discuss.

Will HTML 5.0 let me read those books on my Sony PRS-505? On my Clie? Import them to my daughter's no-registered-credit-card Kindle? Read on a Jetbook? If they're readable offline, are they loadable on a dialup connection?

If not, it's just another walled-garden model that says "if you want to buy our books, you have to buy our approved device first."

Will they be readable in 15 years? I have 15-year-old ebooks now. I haven't been buying that long; my oldest purchased ebook is a bit more than 4 years old. Will this cloud guarantee that ebooks are available that long? Or will they be revocable by publisher's whim, or if sales contracts change?

[jgaiser]

Originally Posted by kennyc

I'm outta here, this guy hasn't got a clue and is just a shill for publishers as has been shown.

Unsubscribe.

Yep.. Don't feed the Troll...

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by stonetools

I did offer evidence, but you rejected it.

Really? If so, I do apologise. Would you mind reminding me, either by repeating it or pointing me to specific posts?

[Xenophon]

Originally Posted by stonetools

THey have looked at the same data and come to a different conclusion.

OK, let's sum up.
We know of one small genre publisher who has had success offering non DRMED work (Baen
There is a one publisher of niche nonfiction is is successful offering non DRMED work (O'Reilly)
There are a handful of authors who make a living offering non DRM work. ( Most of those apparently publish in the proprietary Kindle format and apparently make their sales for reading on a closed device, but let that pass)

This is not a significant record upon which to base a major gamble like dropping DRM.

THose arguing for the gamble argue the following:

1. DRM is really annoying to us experts.
2.Large scale casual sharing won't happen ( because nobody likes getting emailed free copies of bestsellers, I guess).
3.Even if it does does happen, it will generate more sales of obscure books. What about its effect on bestsellers?-Er, have I told you DRM is REALLY annoying?).
4. A tiny number of authors and publishers have made a living in niche markets offering non DRM work. Whats the evidence that going without DRM will work on a larger scale? Well, what's the evidence It WON"T work? Hey, lets give it a go, cause, you know, what could go wrong?
5. People could lose their books because some store could go out of business! Well, wouldn't it be easy to strip DRM in that emergency situation? Well yes, but that's not the point.
5. DRM is really, really, REALLY annoying.


Based on this, its obvious to me why publishers aren't leaping into the dark. I think the better approach would be to allay the concerns of the digerati by pressing for a better DRM regime-but that really won't satisfy the purists. Anyway, I think there really isn't much more to say about the answer to my question. We just don't know, and when people don't know, they opt for the status quo.
[SNIP]

On #1: Actually, we have plenty of evidence that DRM becomes annoying to non-experts when stores or DRM-providers shut down.

On #2: We also have plenty of evidence that whatever large-scale casual sharing may be happening for bestsellers, it seems to lack significant negative impact on the sales of those bestsellers. See my prior post about little Baen occupying more than 1% of the total available slots on the NYT hardcover fiction bestsellers list.

On #3: You ask "what about bestsellers?" Well, what about them? The only available evidence to date is "not a problem." See that earlier post, again. You say it'll obviously be a problem. So... I showed you some <heavy irony> actual evidence </heavy irony>. You've responded with an assertion. I reply that evidence trumps assertion. The available evidence is too scarce to be conclusive, but it still outweighs unsupported assertion.

On #4: Few of the posters here have suggested that the BPH should blindly copy Baen or O'Reilly. Rather, we suggest that they examine closely those publishers and their business models. Then, the BPH need to consider carefully how to restructure themselves for the future. It seems likely that there are plenty of business models that can work. But the head-in-the-sand, we-know-better, you're-all-pirates assertions we see appear far more like a wrongheaded refusal to look at real successes than like outcome of the kind of hard-headed business and customer focused review that the BPH clearly need.

On #5: The experts can strip the DRM easily. Usually. The non-experts just get pissed off, instead. And the DRM still didn't prevent piracy, 'cause that only requires one expert who's willing to upload (if the path is via DRM-breaking), or zero experts for books that are just scanned-and-proofed or typed in.

And on the second #5: Treating your customers like thieves is not generally considered to be a good way to foster goodwill amongst those customers. Last I heard, anyway. The retailers I know who have those locked-down iPods, etc., uniformly say that they wish they didn't need to lock them down (partly because it costs them money to do so, and loses them sales, to boot!). But they have real-world experience that demonstrates it to be necessary, with hard numbers to back up the assertion. By comparison, the BPH (and you) seem to have only fears and assertions. The folks arguing against you are the ones with the real-world examples and hard numbers. Hmmmm....


So... We're not asking for a leap into the dark, but for a much more careful consideration of business models. Lucky for us, the companies that get it right (or right enough) will survive, and the others, well... let's just say that they'll change their business model one way or another. (Note that "right" doesn't mean they wind up agreeing with me, just that they do well enough to continue in business.)

And that "better DRM regime" you mention? If "preventing piracy" and "allowing legitimate users access to their content" are both part of its requirements, it's provably impossible to build.

Xenophon

Oh yeah, two more DRM-free publishers:
Wiley (www.wiley.com) makes all their material available in bits for free. They report that sales of paper went UP when the bits became available. (my best reference isn't linkable: my uncle was on their Board of Directors at the time. He's my source)
The National Academies Press makes all its publications available in bits for free. They report that as they moved to put their reports online, sales of dead tree format products showed a significant uptick soon after the online version went live.

[stonetools]

On #1, you are talking about rare instances of stores shutting down. Actually, when stores shut down or software publishers go out of business, consumers have problems that have nothing to do with DRM. Sure DRM doesn't help, but its just one incidental concern

On #2, see the article :

Eleven of the 13 agreed with me that DRM is necessary to protect sales. Ten of the 13 agreed with me that DRM is not an effective deterrent to piracy. And 12 of the 13 agreed with me that DRM’s main benefit is to prevent casual sharing!

1.The folks interviwed are publishing industry experts who know far about the publishing business than you or I, so their opinion should carry weight.
2. Its rather difficult to produce the evidence that large scale casual sharing could depress sales since with the DRM regime in place, large scale casual sharing isn't happening. You really are talking about probabities of what could happen when DRM is removed, and people can share books the way they share news articles. Based on my experience, people share news articles that they enjoy pretty readily. I believe ( and the publishers believe) that they would share books with equal frequency. Based on the experience of the music industry, people share files so readily that the music industry has given up trying to stop it-and music industry revenues have collapsed, largely as a result of that. Musicians no longer expect to make much money from sales of albums and singles-they tour in order to make a living thse days. And authors cant hold concerts.
3.As I'm sure you know, the fact that a book makes the best seller lists is not evidence that pracy hasn't had a significant effect on sales. It almost certainly made the list in spite of the effects of piracy. We don't know, because pirates don't release download figures.Commonsense tells me that piracy depresses sales, but I can't be certain.

4. Its quite possible that the publishers have examined the Baen/O'Relly models and decided that they can't work for them. If you read the article, they have definitely discussed going no DRM, and were open to the idea that casual sharing might spur sales of obscure authors, but the no DRM position hasn't won out yet.
5.Nobody has really shown that the average reader is even aware of DRM, has been significantly inconvenienced by DRM , or has been significantly damaged by DRM. I agree that DRM doesn't stop piracy. WE're focused on large scale casaul sharing.The music industry gives us real world experience of what happens when people get used to passing around music files like candy. It aint pretty for the music industry-50% fall in revenue with no end in sight.
Again, inf someone can show me WHY they think that large scale casual sharing wouldn't depress ebook sales, particularly of best sellers, I'm all ears. All I've heard is :
It won't happen. Honest, trust us.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by stonetools

THey have looked at the same data and come to a different conclusion.

Why do you think that? That is not what people in publishing tell. They say that the people making the decisions do not know anything about publishing and therefore we get these very strange decisions that people on lower levels do not agree with.

Were do you get your knowledge about how the publishing industry works?