People who want no DRM are impractical dreamers...

[Prestidigitweeze]

Nicely put -- though I might say one unstated rather than the real purpose, as publishers, marketers and manufacturers' reasons for supporting DRM can be different even when they coincide.

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

The real purpose of DRM is to tie consumers to one particular hardware device and to make it inconvenient to switch to another (competing) device. The idea is that once you get a customer you will never lose them because the only way for them to switch to a competitor is to throw away all their software purchases.

[queentess]

Originally Posted by stonetools

In this world, ther are a lot of things that inconvenience law abiding citizens, from having to lock our doors when we go out to having to remove our shoes and submit to other indignities when we take an airplane flight We put up with it because we have to. DRM is simply another minor inconvenience, in the big scheme of things.ITs important to keep that in perspective.

To be clear, saying "that's the way it is and I see no way around it" does not mean I should just accept it. It's clear that neither of us has a proposed solution, and in the meantime I'd like to see no DRM and you'd like to see DRM.

Originally Posted by stonetools

Once again, its pretty clear to me that only the digerati are really up in arms about DRM. Most of the masses of people who bought reading devices over the past year don't care and don't even know about DRM.

They just haven't figured it out yet. Once my mom knows someone else with an ereader and wants to share a book, all hell is gonna break loose...

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by stonetools

THe scenario I have in mind would be if the next installment of the Twilight Saga was sold non DRM . What is the likelihood that Twilight besotted teenage girls would buy the book and share it with their Facebook friends, who would share it with their Facebook friends, etc. IMO, the likelihood of that would approach 100 percent. .

If Facebook is such a den of piracy perhaps the various governments of the world should close it down straight away like they have with other dens of piracy recently.

But do you really think that DRM that can be easily removed by anyone who wants to will stop all these Facebook pirates? Even the ultimate DRM of not releasing an ebook version at all wouldn't stop them if that was what they wanted to do.

Has treating all your potential customers as thieves ever worked in any industry?

[stonetools]

For the same reason it's not done now with Baen books, Konrath's books, Hocking's books... because "you can give a copy to a friend" (specifically allowed in Baen's purchase) is not the same as "post this so anyone can download it." Some casual sharing exists, but the non-DRM publishers, both corporate and individual, haven't been put out of business by it.

Because MOST PEOPLE ARE NOT THIEVES. Most readers want authors to write more, so they want them to get paid. Saying "how can we prevent casual sharing without DRM" is like saying "how can we prevent shoplifting without searching people at the door?"

Baen is a scall scale publisher , serving a niche market. His example may just not scale up to a worldwide publishing industry on which millions of people depend for their livelihood. A "no locked doors" policy works in a small rural community; it isn't advisable in the big bad city.
Most people may not be thieves: but they sure like to share things they enjoy with friends. In the Facebook age, they can share with dozens of people at a time. Its a whole nother thing than lending a book to Daddy or your best friend.
For the record, storeowners do in fact take precautions against shoplifters, INCLUDING searching suspected shoplifters at the door. Are you saying publishers and authors have no right to take precautions against people copying and distrinbuting their work without payiing for it? Because this appears to be what you are saying.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Er, a writer can't make a living under either scenario. That's the point. How many writer can make a living if only a tiny percentage of his books that are downloaded and read are actual sales? You are truly living in la-la land if you think that's a viable business model for writers and publishers

Those figures are wildly exagerated, even extremely popular books are only downloaded in their hundreds rather than thousands. You're also forgetting about the positive impacts of file sharing. Research has proven that file sharers spend more on legitimate downloads than non-file sharers. So far there has been no research on how many extra sales are generated through their recommendations to others. But eliminate file sharing and you also eliminate all of those extra sales.

The major drain on any writer's income is publishers who take a 90% cut of their income in return for a few one-off services. If writers just paid a one-off fee for those one-off services and kept 100% of their income they could charge a tiny fraction of their current price for ebooks and still make more money. Who's going to waste time looking for free copies of something they can buy for less than the price of a coffee?

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Er, a writer can't make a living under either scenario. That's the point. How many writer can make a living if only a tiny percentage of his books that are downloaded and read are actual sales? You are truly living in la-la land if you think that's a viable business model for writers and publishers

You are scraping the bottom of the barrel. Do you really think I meant those numbers to be total books sales?


And in fact, all this fun speculation is really beside the point.

Digital music sales figures have already shown that dropping DRM doesn't harm digital sales.

[queentess]

Originally Posted by stonetools

For the record, storeowners do in fact take precautions against shoplifters, INCLUDING searching suspected shoplifters at the door. Are you saying publishers and authors have no right to take precautions against people copying and distrinbuting their work without payiing for it? Because this appears to be what you are saying.

I won't begrudge shop owners stopping someone they have reason to suspect. I will begrudge shop owners who think I should be searched just because I'm in their store.

I got this a lot when I was in my mid-20's... I looked young, and shop owners assumed I was a teenager, which of course meant I was a thief. I stopped shopping several places because they'd suspect me of shoplifting. I've never shoplifted a thing in my life, not even a pack of gum as a kid

[Prestidigitweeze]

Originally Posted by stonetools

You are truly living in la-la land if you think that's a viable business model for writers and publishers. . . .You guys should adjust your tin foil hats, they're getting a bit tight

What's with the ad hominem suggestions that people are insane if they happen not to agree with you? Arguing well lends enough credibility to anyone's point. Maligning others' credibility in the process only detracts from it.

[stonetools]

Originally Posted by Prestidigitweeze

What's with the ad hominem suggestions that people are insane if they happen not to agree with you? Arguing well lends enough credibility to anyone's point. Maligning others' credibility in the process only detracts from it.

Oh please. You came in at the end, so you didn't see ther numerous ad hominems leveled at me. Read the thread please.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by stonetools

In this world, there are a lot of things that inconvenience law abiding citizens, from having to lock our doors when we go out to having to remove our shoes and submit to other indignities when we take an airplane flight We put up with it because we have to. DRM is simply another minor inconvenience, in the big scheme of things.Its important to keep that in perspective.
Once again, its pretty clear to me that only the digerati are really up in arms about DRM. Most of the masses of people who bought reading devices over the past year don't care and don't even know about DRM.

Most aren't aware of their odds of dying in a car accident either, but that doesn't make it any less relevant of less worthy of addressing.

[stonetools]

Digital music sales figures have already shown that dropping DRM doesn't harm digital sales.

Er , maybe you didnt read the response to your post showing that music industry revenues have collapsed in the last decade. No one that I know thinks that the musuic industry is in good health. Your graph proves that ITunes is doing well. It does not prove that musicians and music companies can make a good living in an age of non DRM music. Quite the contrary, if anything.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by stonetools

A look at falling music industry revenues shows it can be that bad.

Would that be the same music industry that showed an increase in profits around the same time that it stopped using DRM?

UK music industry profits actually rose 5% last year on the previous year, and UK broadband saturation is now at 95%, so whatever is wrong with the music industry elsewhere it can't be due to piracy.

According to the music industry's own figures there are 7 million file sharers (aka pirates) in the UK. With a total population of about 62 million, that's a pretty big percentage.

Are there any similar figures available for other countries?

[Prestidigitweeze]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Oh please. You came in at the end, so you didn't see ther numerous ad hominems leveled at me. Read the thread please.

First, questioning the literacy and diligence of the person who responds is no better than suggesting they are insane. Sticking to the argument is always better than casting aspersions. Second, it does no service to you to argue that you were simply being as awful as everyone else.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by queentess

I won't begrudge shop owners stopping someone they have reason to suspect. I will begrudge shop owners who think I should be searched just because I'm in their store.

I got this a lot when I was in my mid-20's... I looked young, and shop owners assumed I was a teenager, which of course meant I was a thief. I stopped shopping several places because they'd suspect me of shoplifting. I've never shoplifted a thing in my life, not even a pack of gum as a kid

I still get that now when I'm in my biker gear. I hate to imagine how many suit-wearing shoplifters they will be missing while they're following me around.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Er , maybe you didnt read the response to your post showing that music industry revenues have collapsed in the last decade. No one that I know thinks that the musuic industry is in good health. Your graph proves that ITunes is doing well. It does not prove that musicians and music companies can make a good living in an age of non DRM music. Quite the contrary, if anything.

Even the most pessimistic figures I've seen say that music industry profits hit$6.3billion last year. If nobody can make an income from that, where is all that money going to?