mdash - a good thing or not - in e-books - Page 3

DaleDe · 03-12-2011, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cybmole

well I checked the kindle forum—searched for mdash—clearly no one there gives a toss about it not parsing properly—it's only us folks here who seem to care....

The mobi format has so many problems with formatting due to limitations in the format itself they are probably just happy to read something. Personally I put in spaces most of the time to aid the reader in parsing a line. Depending on the use I sometimes put a space on both sides and sometimes set up the clause with a space ahead of the mdash at the start of the clause and a space after it at the end. This way the mdash behaves like a () or "" kind of punctuation.

Dale

HarryT · 03-12-2011, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaleDe

The mobi format has so many problems with formatting due to limitations in the format itself they are probably just happy to read something. Personally I put in spaces most of the time to aid the reader in parsing a line. Depending on the use I sometimes put a space on both sides and sometimes set up the clause with a space ahead of the mdash at the start of the clause and a space after it at the end. This way the mdash behaves like a () or "" kind of punctuation.

Dale

For novels, Mobi is pretty reasonable. I agree of course that it's far more limited than ePub, but it's good enough for most novels.

cybmole · 03-13-2011, 03:14 AM

well I changed all the books on my current reading list form the Mdash style to the spaces+ndash style - but ended up changing them all back again after some test reading on Kindle!
The discussion has made me too conscious of the fact that I should be seeing mdash, I guess.

still - it did demonstrate that you can switch styles in less than 1 minute per book using find / replace.

I toyed also with the ideas of switching all mdash to ndash then making a 2nd pass to restore any constructs ending in a quote i.e. to put back all —", so that there would be no stranded end " marks, but did not actually implement that.

derangedhermit · 03-14-2011, 03:36 AM

For single vs double vs guillemets, does it work to do the markup using <q> </q> in the html and then setting the character in CSS? Like q:before {content openquotechar}; q:after { content: closequotechar; }; and defining open- and closequotechar based on language? It looks like you could do quotes in quotes correctly, too.

The closest I can think of for emdashes is to put in the emdash and a zerowidthspace after it - indicating to break after, but not before. From the earlier examples, it looked like the pairing with quotes was context dependent, so there is no way to solve that?

Jellby · 03-14-2011, 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by derangedhermit

For single vs double vs guillemets, does it work to do the markup using <q> </q> in the html and then setting the character in CSS? Like q:before {content openquotechar}; q:after { content: closequotechar; }; and defining open- and closequotechar based on language?

I believe "content" is not a widely supported property (though it's in the spec). And the quoting styles don't differ only in the quote characters, but also in other details, like the punctuation placement.

Freeshadow · 03-14-2011, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theducks

<rant>
my 2 cents:
By bastardizing a standard to support a non-standard (Amazon, Apple...) forced upon un-suspecting buyers, you are perpetuating their Gorilla tactics.

If the 'content' is not available (or as butt-ugly as it can get because you use all the features that they support incorrectly) in their format ,
then maybe the buyers will put up a howl (or ditch the cr*p product and get a real reading device that supports EPUB properly)
</rant>

so +1 on that

Oldpilot · 03-23-2011, 03:28 PM

The closest I can think of for emdashes is to put in the emdash and a zerowidthspace after it - indicating to break after, but not before.

Sounds like a good idea to me! Just have to remember not to end sentences with an emdash--or, if one does, then remember not to do zerowidthspace after it.

All my books use the space / endash / space thingie. Perhaps because I'm accustomed to it in British books, it looks perfectly fine to me.

JSWolf · 03-28-2011, 09:46 PM

ADE does not have an issue with emdash. So for ePub, just use text—text and don't use any zero width space or any sort of space before and/or after.

Seems you may have to fiddle with the emdashes for the Kindle, but ADE is fine.

cybmole · 03-29-2011, 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

ADE does not have an issue with emdash. So for ePub, just use text—text and don't use any zero width space or any sort of space before and/or after.

Seems you may have to fiddle with the emdashes for the Kindle, but ADE is fine.

i have recently been using a Sony reader & that seems to handle mdash OK

Jellby · 03-29-2011, 04:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

ADE does not have an issue with emdash. So for ePub, just use text—text and don't use any zero width space or any sort of space before and/or after.

Seems you may have to fiddle with the emdashes for the Kindle, but ADE is fine.

It might be fine for English, it is not fine for Spanish!

DaleDe · 03-29-2011, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cybmole

i have recently been using a Sony reader & that seems to handle mdash OK

Would it split the long–words on the mdash without a space. Or did it force it all on one line.

Dale

cybmole · 03-29-2011, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaleDe

Would it split the long–words on the mdash without a space. Or did it force it all on one line.

Dale

i have observed it split a line between the mdash & the following word, if I recall correctly.

Sony is also better at justify than Kindle. K will add at most one extra space between each word when trying to justify a line, so sometimes the right margin is still a little ragged. the Sony algorithm seems to just keep increasing the word spacing until there is a perfect fit.

K has slicker chapter navigation though - 1 press of 5 way button & you get next / prev chapter. on sony you have to press options, then choose TOC then choose next chapter.

WT Sharpe · 03-29-2011, 04:31 PM

I agree that an mdash should be used without spaces, but there are other conventions that seem to be falling by the wayside because of their incompatibility with word processors, chat-rooms, and readers. For example, I learned long ago that two spaces should follow the punctuation mark that ends a sentence. However, if you follow that convention today, many of your following sentences will begin on the next line after a space, which is awkward. For that reason, I usually use a space before and after the em dash. If it were in a printed book—by all means—there should be no spaces.

I also use a space after the em dash just before the given source in quotations; but in that case, it's only because I find it more aesthetically pleasing.

JSWolf · 03-30-2011, 09:44 AM

ADE will split at an emdash. Also, it will even more the emdash to the start of the next line if need be. But, The Kindle will take the emdash as just another character and move the entire thing to the next line. So text—text is taken as one word. BBeB (LRF/LRX) did the same thing at the Kindle. One thing ADE will do as fra as justification, it will slightly extend a tad over the margin to not have to drop the last word of a line to the next line. So you may see like 1/2 a letter space over the margin and that's OK.

sjkramer · 03-30-2011, 09:50 AM

I have very reluctantly, begun to add spaces before/after m-dashes. Something I'm adamantly opposed to in books (though I really believe it's a matter of taste, and many reputable publishers surround m-dashes with kerning or spacing). As much as I dislike it, I agree that it is more disruptive to a reader to have the type of overly loose line that Kindle (for instance) will create when an m-dash tricks it into thinking there is a very long word present.

Short version: Spaces around m-dashes is the lesser evil.

03-29-2011, 04:31 PM	#43
WT Sharpe Bah, humbug! Posts: 39,072 Karma: 157049943 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Chesapeake, VA, USA Device: Kindle Oasis, iPad Pro, & a Samsung Galaxy S9.	I agree that an mdash should be used without spaces, but there are other conventions that seem to be falling by the wayside because of their incompatibility with word processors, chat-rooms, and readers. For example, I learned long ago that two spaces should follow the punctuation mark that ends a sentence. However, if you follow that convention today, many of your following sentences will begin on the next line after a space, which is awkward. For that reason, I usually use a space before and after the em dash. If it were in a printed book—by all means—there should be no spaces. I also use a space after the em dash just before the given source in quotations; but in that case, it's only because I find it more aesthetically pleasing. Last edited by WT Sharpe; 03-29-2011 at 04:34 PM.

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03-13-2011, 03:14 AM	#33
cybmole Wizard Posts: 3,720 Karma: 1759970 Join Date: Sep 2010 Device: none	well I changed all the books on my current reading list form the Mdash style to the spaces+ndash style - but ended up changing them all back again after some test reading on Kindle! The discussion has made me too conscious of the fact that I should be seeing mdash, I guess. still - it did demonstrate that you can switch styles in less than 1 minute per book using find / replace. I toyed also with the ideas of switching all mdash to ndash then making a 2nd pass to restore any constructs ending in a quote i.e. to put back all —", so that there would be no stranded end " marks, but did not actually implement that.

03-14-2011, 03:36 AM	#34
derangedhermit Addict Posts: 239 Karma: 1280000 Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: USA Device: None	For single vs double vs guillemets, does it work to do the markup using <q> </q> in the html and then setting the character in CSS? Like q:before {content openquotechar}; q:after { content: closequotechar; }; and defining open- and closequotechar based on language? It looks like you could do quotes in quotes correctly, too. The closest I can think of for emdashes is to put in the emdash and a zerowidthspace after it - indicating to break after, but not before. From the earlier examples, it looked like the pairing with quotes was context dependent, so there is no way to solve that?

03-23-2011, 03:28 PM	#37
Oldpilot Groupie Posts: 184 Karma: 2572 Join Date: Aug 2010 Device: Kindle	The closest I can think of for emdashes is to put in the emdash and a zerowidthspace after it - indicating to break after, but not before. Sounds like a good idea to me! Just have to remember not to end sentences with an emdash--or, if one does, then remember not to do zerowidthspace after it. All my books use the space / endash / space thingie. Perhaps because I'm accustomed to it in British books, it looks perfectly fine to me.

03-28-2011, 09:46 PM	#38
JSWolf Resident Curmudgeon Posts: 79,763 Karma: 145864619 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3	ADE does not have an issue with emdash. So for ePub, just use text—text and don't use any zero width space or any sort of space before and/or after. Seems you may have to fiddle with the emdashes for the Kindle, but ADE is fine.

03-30-2011, 09:44 AM	#44
JSWolf Resident Curmudgeon Posts: 79,763 Karma: 145864619 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3	ADE will split at an emdash. Also, it will even more the emdash to the start of the next line if need be. But, The Kindle will take the emdash as just another character and move the entire thing to the next line. So text—text is taken as one word. BBeB (LRF/LRX) did the same thing at the Kindle. One thing ADE will do as fra as justification, it will slightly extend a tad over the margin to not have to drop the last word of a line to the next line. So you may see like 1/2 a letter space over the margin and that's OK.

03-30-2011, 09:50 AM	#45
sjkramer Connoisseur Posts: 68 Karma: 526028 Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: New York, NY Device: iphone	I have very reluctantly, begun to add spaces before/after m-dashes. Something I'm adamantly opposed to in books (though I really believe it's a matter of taste, and many reputable publishers surround m-dashes with kerning or spacing). As much as I dislike it, I agree that it is more disruptive to a reader to have the type of overly loose line that Kindle (for instance) will create when an m-dash tricks it into thinking there is a very long word present. Short version: Spaces around m-dashes is the lesser evil.