Ebook Reselling -Yea or Nay-

Giggleton · 03-12-2011, 09:10 PM

Greetings,

I've been thinking about first sale rights of ebooks lately.

Laws are written to serve us, when they no longer do, it is time to discard those laws.

To make a long story short, do you think it's ok for someone, to resell ebooks they've purchased to another, as long as the sale deletes the original copy from the sellers device?

DJHARKAVY · 03-12-2011, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giggleton

Greetings,

I've been thinking about first sale rights of ebooks lately.

Laws are written to serve us, when they no longer do, it is time to discard those laws.

To make a long story short, do you think it's ok for someone, to resell ebooks they've purchased to another, as long as the sale deletes the original copy from the sellers device?

How do you confirm that?

feenix1363 · 03-12-2011, 09:49 PM

Here in the UK charity shops do a roaring trade in donated books, this is a market that they are due to lose completely in the 'new' digital age as we no longer buy/hold/own even the copy we have paid for. Under licensing agreements we are simply paying for the right to read the book, not to have a product. Makes you wonder why ebooks are so expensive if we are simply renting them doesn't it?

OtterBooks · 03-12-2011, 10:01 PM

I would never buy a used copy, because I really like that new-ebook smell.

Giggleton · 03-12-2011, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJHARKAVY

How do you confirm that?

The system would delete the ebook from the device when it is sold.

We will never be able to confirm that the seller did not place some kind of intermediary device between their device and the purchasers device, allowing the seller to retain the book after it is sold.

The fact that the capability to retain a sold copy exists does not mean that we should abandon millennia old notions of property.

I am currently capable of printing out exact copies of mass market paperbacks from my home, does this mean that your store bought paperbacks should not have first sale rights as well?

OtterBooks · 03-12-2011, 10:50 PM

Quote:

I am currently capable of printing out exact copies of mass market paperbacks from my home

I am skeptical of this.

gmw · 03-13-2011, 05:55 AM

Not really sure how to respond to this as my answer is conditional.

I believe (or at least strongly suspect) that technological constraints will eventually force the ebook publishing market to adopt the licensing model model used by software (as they are half-heartedly trying to do now). If that push develops, and I expect it will, then the response is Nay - no reselling (the idea of a "second-hand" digital object is almost a contradiction in terms).

However if some means is found to sell a "copy" of a work in an electronic equivalent form of a book (can't see it happening, but I'm no oracle), then my answer would be yea.

At the moment ebook publishing seems to be positioned half-way between the two systems, trying to sell as if selling a book but trying to license as if software; trying to have their cake and eat it too. Of course part of their problem will be educating a very broad mix of consumers, whichever approach they take.

DiapDealer · 03-13-2011, 08:11 AM

No.

Not because I'm opposed to the selling of an ebook, but because the system that ensured only one incarnation of that file existed at any given time would be a nightmare of hellish proportions that would make the current DRM schemes seem like rainbows and lollipops by comparison.

feenix1363 · 03-13-2011, 08:41 AM

I agree that it may be hard, but certainly not impossible to ensure that only one copy of a book is used.

How about, and this is just off the top of my head, a card or chip is posted to the buyers address with a copy of the book, or a release key as well as the download? Not hard to implement, and not expensive. Certainly cheaper than printing and delivery a paper book. This key/card/code could then be sold in in the future (or indeed passed on to charity, friends, co-workers). In the event of this being a release key it could also be time bombed for only x amount of downloads (a little like Harper Collins are offering as a solution to library lending)

DiapDealer · 03-13-2011, 08:52 AM

Quote:

How about, and this is just off the top of my head, a card or chip is posted to the buyers address with a copy of the book, or a release key as well as the download? Not hard to implement, and not expensive.

I think I just died a little bit on the inside.

snipenekkid · 03-13-2011, 09:01 AM

a simple license transfer feature by the store, content provider or publisher would be the best option to enable reselling of ebooks.

In it's simplest terms all that would need be done is for the person selling the book be given the ability to transfer ownership of the license to another account, within the same store/website. No sharing of accounts etc would be needed. I also would completely agree there should be a limit to the number of transfers per license should be part of the deal.

Publishers have zero motivation to add this ability because they have buffaloed the public to ignore that ebooks grant access to the much coveted used book buyers segment of the market. That is if the prices are competitive with used prices plus a small amount for the convenience of ebooks.

As it sits currently on the Kindle it is OK to resell your content with the reader to which it was downloaded or sent via Whispernet. At least that was the last time I read about it. Even then there was doubt it was OK unless the seller made sure to delete the titles from their account. But deleting them from an account means the titles are no longer tracked as the copies don't belong to any Amazon account.

abookreader · 03-13-2011, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snipenekkid

a simple license transfer feature by the store, content provider or publisher would be the best option to enable reselling of ebooks.

In it's simplest terms all that would need be done is for the person selling the book be given the ability to transfer ownership of the license to another account, within the same store/website. No sharing of accounts etc would be needed. I also would completely agree there should be a limit to the number of transfers per license should be part of the deal.

Publishers have zero motivation to add this ability because they have buffaloed the public to ignore that ebooks grant access to the much coveted used book buyers segment of the market. That is if the prices are competitive with used prices plus a small amount for the convenience of ebooks.

As it sits currently on the Kindle it is OK to resell your content with the reader to which it was downloaded or sent via Whispernet. At least that was the last time I read about it. Even then there was doubt it was OK unless the seller made sure to delete the titles from their account. But deleting them from an account means the titles are no longer tracked as the copies don't belong to any Amazon account.

I'm pretty sure Amazon reversed their policy on that. Actually I'm not sure it was ever an official policy that it was okay. I did send Amazon an email for clarification about a year ago and received back a canned response saying that if I sold a Kindle all books should be removed from it.

snipenekkid · 03-13-2011, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abookreader

I'm pretty sure Amazon reversed their policy on that. Actually I'm not sure it was ever an official policy that it was okay. I did send Amazon an email for clarification about a year ago and received back a canned response saying that if I sold a Kindle all books should be removed from it.

that seems right but I wasn't 100% sure so I hedged, thanks!!

wayrad · 03-13-2011, 09:28 AM

I don't see anything ethically wrong with selling a "used" ebook, but what would be the point? My used paperbacks never fetched much, and my main motivation in selling them was to clear out space for new ones. With ebooks that's no longer a consideration.

I suppose that if the Agency 5 (now 6) continue to jack up prices, I might become interested in the idea of *buying* used ebooks...but I agree with DiapDealer about the nightmare that would ensue if the process were regulated via DRM.

Giggleton · 03-13-2011, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wayrad

I don't see anything ethically wrong with selling a "used" ebook, but what would be the point? My used paperbacks never fetched much, and my main motivation in selling them was to clear out space for new ones. With ebooks that's no longer a consideration.

I suppose that if the Agency 5 (now 6) continue to jack up prices, I might become interested in the idea of *buying* used ebooks...but I agree with DiapDealer about the nightmare that would ensue if the process were regulated via DRM.

I am interested in selling my ebooks at a price of zero.

View Poll Results: Should We Be Able To Resell Our Ebooks? (First Sale Rights)
Yes	93	73.23%
No	34	26.77%
Voters: 127. You may not vote on this poll

03-12-2011, 09:10 PM	#1
Giggleton Banned Posts: 1,687 Karma: 4368191 Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Oregon Device: Kindle3	Ebook Reselling -Yea or Nay- Greetings, I've been thinking about first sale rights of ebooks lately. Laws are written to serve us, when they no longer do, it is time to discard those laws. To make a long story short, do you think it's ok for someone, to resell ebooks they've purchased to another, as long as the sale deletes the original copy from the sellers device? Last edited by Giggleton; 03-12-2011 at 09:15 PM.

03-13-2011, 09:28 AM	#14
wayrad Fanatic Posts: 551 Karma: 1121392 Join Date: May 2008 Location: USA Device: HTC One M8	I don't see anything ethically wrong with selling a "used" ebook, but what would be the point? My used paperbacks never fetched much, and my main motivation in selling them was to clear out space for new ones. With ebooks that's no longer a consideration. I suppose that if the Agency 5 (now 6) continue to jack up prices, I might become interested in the idea of buying used ebooks...but I agree with DiapDealer about the nightmare that would ensue if the process were regulated via DRM. Last edited by wayrad; 03-13-2011 at 09:40 AM. Reason: typo

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03-12-2011, 09:49 PM	#3
feenix1363 Lost and clueless Posts: 194 Karma: 233336 Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: UK Device: PRS-T1, Kobo Glo, Kindle for Andriod, Kobo for Android	Here in the UK charity shops do a roaring trade in donated books, this is a market that they are due to lose completely in the 'new' digital age as we no longer buy/hold/own even the copy we have paid for. Under licensing agreements we are simply paying for the right to read the book, not to have a product. Makes you wonder why ebooks are so expensive if we are simply renting them doesn't it?

03-12-2011, 10:01 PM	#4
OtterBooks Wizard Posts: 1,262 Karma: 2979086 Join Date: Nov 2010 Device: Kindle 4, iPad Mini/Retina	I would never buy a used copy, because I really like that new-ebook smell.

03-13-2011, 05:55 AM	#7
gmw cacoethes scribendi Posts: 5,818 Karma: 137770742 Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Australia Device: Kobo Aura One & H2Ov2, Sony PRS-650	Not really sure how to respond to this as my answer is conditional. I believe (or at least strongly suspect) that technological constraints will eventually force the ebook publishing market to adopt the licensing model model used by software (as they are half-heartedly trying to do now). If that push develops, and I expect it will, then the response is Nay - no reselling (the idea of a "second-hand" digital object is almost a contradiction in terms). However if some means is found to sell a "copy" of a work in an electronic equivalent form of a book (can't see it happening, but I'm no oracle), then my answer would be yea. At the moment ebook publishing seems to be positioned half-way between the two systems, trying to sell as if selling a book but trying to license as if software; trying to have their cake and eat it too. Of course part of their problem will be educating a very broad mix of consumers, whichever approach they take.

03-13-2011, 08:11 AM	#8
DiapDealer Grand Sorcerer Posts: 28,883 Karma: 207000000 Join Date: Jan 2010 Device: Nexus 7, Kindle Fire HD	No. Not because I'm opposed to the selling of an ebook, but because the system that ensured only one incarnation of that file existed at any given time would be a nightmare of hellish proportions that would make the current DRM schemes seem like rainbows and lollipops by comparison.

03-13-2011, 08:41 AM	#9
feenix1363 Lost and clueless Posts: 194 Karma: 233336 Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: UK Device: PRS-T1, Kobo Glo, Kindle for Andriod, Kobo for Android	I agree that it may be hard, but certainly not impossible to ensure that only one copy of a book is used. How about, and this is just off the top of my head, a card or chip is posted to the buyers address with a copy of the book, or a release key as well as the download? Not hard to implement, and not expensive. Certainly cheaper than printing and delivery a paper book. This key/card/code could then be sold in in the future (or indeed passed on to charity, friends, co-workers). In the event of this being a release key it could also be time bombed for only x amount of downloads (a little like Harper Collins are offering as a solution to library lending)

03-13-2011, 09:01 AM	#11
snipenekkid Banned Posts: 760 Karma: 51034 Join Date: Feb 2009	a simple license transfer feature by the store, content provider or publisher would be the best option to enable reselling of ebooks. In it's simplest terms all that would need be done is for the person selling the book be given the ability to transfer ownership of the license to another account, within the same store/website. No sharing of accounts etc would be needed. I also would completely agree there should be a limit to the number of transfers per license should be part of the deal. Publishers have zero motivation to add this ability because they have buffaloed the public to ignore that ebooks grant access to the much coveted used book buyers segment of the market. That is if the prices are competitive with used prices plus a small amount for the convenience of ebooks. As it sits currently on the Kindle it is OK to resell your content with the reader to which it was downloaded or sent via Whispernet. At least that was the last time I read about it. Even then there was doubt it was OK unless the seller made sure to delete the titles from their account. But deleting them from an account means the titles are no longer tracked as the copies don't belong to any Amazon account.