Librarians Threaten Boycott Over HC e-Book Terms

[FF2]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Kobos will do just fine for that. But Kindles at the library? No way.

If you strip the DRM, you can put them on as many devices ePub is compatible with.

I combined two of your statements. If you are willing to strip the drm you may as well convert to Kindle and

so "but Kindles at the library" YUP, as much as on any other epub device.

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by asjogren

Look, an author can make a profit on a PURCHASED $0.99 eBook at SmashWords. Last time I checked it was about half. That include all the overhead of the software development, website operation, and credit card fees.

The Smashwords author didn't pay for proofreading or editing or pay an advance, for one thing.

What is fundamentally *different* between books and movies? Movies cost *huge* amounts of money to produce. And often start with buying the rights to A BOOK. DVDs are in your Public Library. Yet RedBox, Netflix, and BlockBuster rent them. And you can buy them at retail. The Public Library has killed neither rental nor sales.

What does RedBox rent movies for???

Is the Movie business *that* different? Why would a $2.99 eBook rental destroy the Publishing business when RedBox prices have not destroyed the Movie business?

The Cartel should view the Public Library as a marketing partner, not as a group of "Radical Militant Librarians".

I think you are losing track of what your scheme entails. What's different about RedBox, Netflix, etc. is that these lenders *have bought the DVDs that they're renting.* Every DVD that you rent from RedBox or Netflix has already been purchased from the publisher. That's the way current library lending works, now, too - the publishers buy a copy (or license a copy, if you will) from overdrive and then lend out that copy that they have purchased. Basically just like with regular books.

What you are proposing is that the libraries rent out books for $2.99 *that they haven't bought.*

[asjogren]

"What you are proposing is that the libraries rent out books for $2.99 *that they haven't bought."

No! I must have mis-communicated. The Publishers, via Overdrive, rent the eBooks when the wait or availability from one's Public Library are unacceptable. The Public Library's collection is only loaned, not rented.

[AprilHare]

That pig seems rather sad that it all came to a brick being thrown through their window.
I guess that reflects how sad we're getting that companies think ebooks are a brand new way to bilk us all.

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

[thrawn_aj]

Originally Posted by rogue_librarian

You mean, like somebody wanted to borrow "The Girl who kicked the Hornet's Nest" and the librarian says "Here, take this Kindle, it's got the whole trilogy on it?" I'm sure that would violate all kinds of laws, and be very difficult to handle on top of it.

Which laws could it possibly violate? It's not copyright infringement, since no copies are being made. It's not DMCA violations, since (again, no copies are being made) and no DRM is being removed. I don't think it even violates Amazon's TOS (the book is tied to a single Kindle account, not a single person). Even DVDs can be rented out (as long as they are not copied) without any additional licensing fee or permission.

Difficulty-wise, you (being a librarian) would be in the best position to judge, so I'll take your word for it (I can kinda see how it would raise a lot of problems). Legally, this seems almost trivially valid.

[Kali Yuga]

Originally Posted by asjogren

I imagine a deal with Amazon.com might piss-off the Publishers hugely....

How very adult of you.

FYI, there are already examples of school libraries which loan out Kindles, e.g. Cushing Academy got rid of most of its paper books in 2009, and loans out books either via 70 Kindles or to the student's laptops. Obviously this works out smoothly with PD books; it's not clear to me if they use Overdrive, commercial purchases or some other process.

However, fundamentally this doesn't change anything. Ultimately organizations like libraries aren't terribly interested in sneaking around restrictions like a couple of kids stealing a piece of candy from the corner store.

Originally Posted by asjogren

It is really hard to win a PR battle against Public Libraries.

5 years ago it was inconceivable that local governments would pick on teachers, police and firefighters. Today, well....

[Soldim]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

Vastly fewer people read than watch movies.

Really? That surprises me somewhat. Do you have numbers?

Vastly fewer movies are produced each year than books printed.

There I can believe you... though how many people expect to earn a decent wage in each business might be something else.

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by asjogren

The DVD Video market survives quite well with Public Library loans, Blockbuster and NetFlix rentals, and retail sales. I think the the eBook market will eventually offer rental and subscription services. The Public Library does not decimate sales for the other media it loans. The Cartel should not obsess about these underfunded Public Libraries.

DVD rentals from the library are physical media, get damaged, and have to be replaced. The difference with eBooks over physical books, audiobooks and movies is that they remain pristine forever.

[rogue_librarian]

Originally Posted by thrawn_aj

Which laws could it possibly violate?

Yes, copyright law; I'm afraid it is a bit more complicated. Copyright (or "authors' rights", as some like to call them) is not restricted to actually making copies; it also deals with publishing, translating, broadcasting, disseminating, making publicly available etc. Details will, obviously depend on your jurisdiction.

That said, the chief impediment at this point would probably be the license granted by Amazon. (See these links for more discussion)

Legally, this seems almost trivially valid.

'fraid not.

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

This would completely gut their retail market. Which is probably why it has never been done for pbooks.

Actually, I remember in the early 1950s being able to go into a local pharmacy and rent the newest bestseller for a nominal sum. For-profit lending "libraries," that is, places where you rented a book, were not uncommon in the United States. Ultimately they died out because the public library system grew, not because publishers put them out of business.

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

And of course charging for books is radically inconsistent with the mission of a library anyway.

No it isn't. Originally, libraries charged for lending books. The change came about when Andrew Carnegie established free libraries and local communities agreed to finance libraries through tax dollars. Now that many communities are cutting back on library financing, there is no reason for libraries to not charge for some services.

I suspect that to fulfill its mission, a library need go no further than to make the books available to be read for free on premise.

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by rhadin

No it isn't. Originally, libraries charged for lending books. The change came about when Andrew Carnegie established free libraries and local communities agreed to finance libraries through tax dollars. Now that many communities are cutting back on library financing, there is no reason for libraries to not charge for some services.

I suspect that to fulfill its mission, a library need go no further than to make the books available to be read for free on premise.

Well, originally libraries contained scrolls in Greek that could only be read on-premises. And, yes, there were subscription libraries in the US and elsewhere after that, but they were never very successful or widespread. Public libraries - as we've known them for over 100 years - do not charge for books. That's the point.

[FF2]

Originally Posted by murraypaul

DVD rentals from the library are physical media, get damaged, and have to be replaced. The difference with eBooks over physical books, audiobooks and movies is that they remain pristine forever.

I am not sure what the background is but I borrowed a dvd from the library. When I attempted to play it I found it had a crack and was unplayable. I returned it and noted its condition. Two days later I was informed a working version was available - it was a COPIED dvd. They had somehow made a copied dvd. Now, I don't know what the Library of Congress has permitted - can public libraries replace damaged dvd's with their own copies? Or are they suppose to buy new ones like the rest of us?

[Dulin's Books]

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

as we've known them for over 100 years - do not charge for books. That's the point.

270ish

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by Dulin's Books

270ish

You're older than I am.