Harper Collins' response to new library lending policy

[queentess]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

26 most likely is low a number, but the renewal problem isn't going to be any different than a paper book that wears out.

To be clear, I'm not saying this is an optimal system, only that it isn't the train wreck some people imagine it is.

Yes, publishers need to be a little more creative with their ebook pricing to libraries since ebooks never wear out. However, 26 sounds like a really low number to me. I'm glad for the backlash, even if it's a bit misdirected.

Sure, 26 checkouts would be a year of constant use, but what about all those times the book is checked out and never even cracked open? Or checked out and returned immediately because it isn't what you were expecting? HC is being excessively conservative in their estimates of book wear and tear.

I'm more curious what happens if a publisher goes belly-up... for pbooks, the library would still have access to the books. But ebooks? What happens when the license expires and the publisher is out of business? The library loses that book forever?

[abookreader]

I have extreme doubts that 26 loans is "a year of use" since a good number of library users are heavy readers and will finish a book in a day or two and return it.

But regardless, not that I am in favor of this either, but if they wanted to make it a year of use ---- then why not make it a year of use? As in "You can loan this licensed eBook to your patrons for one year and then at the end of that year if you want to continue loaning it you will need to re-buy."

At that point in time the library could re-evaluate whether or not the book is still in enough demand to warrant purchasing again.

And not that would do this either, but disposable ebooks that evaporate after a year should cost less. The same way that a paper plate costs less than Corelle.

[rogue_librarian]

Originally Posted by queentess

I'm more curious what happens if a publisher goes belly-up... for pbooks, the library would still have access to the books. But ebooks? What happens when the license expires and the publisher is out of business? The library loses that book forever?

Publishing rights will always belong to somebody. Whether he makes use of them is another matter, of course.

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by abookreader

And not that would do this either, but disposable ebooks that evaporate after a year should cost less. The same way that a paper plate costs less than Corelle.

The problem there is that these publishers feel they have an entitlement to a certain profit level because of hardcover books and two-tiered paperbacks. If these sales take a hit because of ebooks, they see nothing wrong with charging hardcover prices for said ebooks.

So if people only buy paper plates, expect them to raise the prices to Corelle levels.

[rhadin]

I expect that this is the first step on the road to instituting agency pricing for pbooks, too. If we accept the rationale for agency pricing of ebooks (i.e., to prevent the devaluing of the content by selling at too low a price), then it stands to reason that pbooks are next. After all, what is being sold in pbooks is the content, not the covering, and supposedly there is no content difference between p- and ebook versions. Consequently, selling of the pbook for less than the ebook price devalues the pbook content.

Agency selling of pbooks could also solve some other problems that publishers face, particularly returns and overlarge print runs that result in remainders and a large secondary market.

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by rhadin

I expect that this is the first step on the road to instituting agency pricing for pbooks, too. If we accept the rationale for agency pricing of ebooks (i.e., to prevent the devaluing of the content by selling at too low a price), then it stands to reason that pbooks are next. After all, what is being sold in pbooks is the content, not the covering, and supposedly there is no content difference between p- and ebook versions. Consequently, selling of the pbook for less than the ebook price devalues the pbook content.

Agency selling of pbooks could also solve some other problems that publishers face, particularly returns and overlarge print runs that result in remainders and a large secondary market.

How about just pricing all books (ebooks & pbooks) the same?

• $25 during the first 6 months
• $15 for the following 6 months
• $10 after a year

[queentess]

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

How about just pricing all books (ebooks & pbooks) the same?

• $25 during the first 6 months
• $15 for the following 6 months
• $10 after a year

I'm sorry, you're being too logical. You are no longer allowed to participate in threads.

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by queentess

You are no longer allowed to participate in threads.

[Kali Yuga]

Originally Posted by queentess

26 sounds like a really low number to me.... 26 checkouts would be a year of constant use, but what about all those times the book is checked out and never even cracked open?

Originally Posted by abookreader

I have extreme doubts that 26 loans is "a year of use" since a good number of library users are heavy readers and will finish a book in a day or two and return it.

I agree that 26 is probably a bit low. However I'm guessing they did not pull the number out of a hat, they likely did a survey to find out the average life span of a paper book, and cut that number by a certain percent.

I suspect, though, that the people who are upset about this may not want to accept any restricted lifespan on the ebooks, regardless of any economic implications. I also have a feeling that if HC backs down on the policy, they may charge libraries a substantially higher fee per copy, which has its own drawbacks.

As to the "checked out, never read" -- that might be a consideration, but I don't think that standard is particularly relevant. Carrying the book out of the library runs the risk of wear and tear, even if all it does is sit in the bottom of a backpack for a week.

[ATDrake]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

I tried to be very clear about that assumption, and the qualifier that the HC only really works out if that assumption is correct.

Okay, but like I said, given HC's assessment of 26 loans being the point where a paper book falls apart, that kind of casts doubt on the numbers they provide. So the cost analysis only works for the purposes of comparison if they really do price their books that low and their competitors really are 2.5x more expensive, which I think is an overgenerous assumption in HC's favour. Probably the $ gap is narrower.

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

Mostly correct, except that we're talking 13 months of constant checkouts.

At which point the library would have to go buy everything over again.

If a book is sufficiently popular (the mass-market paperbacks of the first 2 of those Larsson books are mostly still on the "1 week Fast Reads" shelf around here, and likely the demand will keep up while they keep making more movies), means they could keep re-buying extra copies of the book to keep in circulation often enough to match the hypothetical 3x cost of the more expensive non-HC comparison in just 3 years if demand keeps up. (They kept The Da Vinci Code on the Fast Reads shelf for well over 2 years, IIRC.)

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

The titles only expire with uses, not with time. If people check out an obscure title 10 times when it first comes out, it stays on the "digital shelves" until it's checked out another 16 times, even if that takes 10 years.

Well then, my library would be so completely screwed because our greedy patrons insist on using up those 26 check-outs on every single book within a couple of months of its catalogue addition.

Seriously, if you go to the New eBooks Arrivals listing for the province-wide consortium and pick any title whatsoever, you'll usually see both multiple copies and a fairly long waiting list, even for weird obscure stuff.

That Vampire Knitting book mentioned earlier? 15 patrons waiting on 4 copies. Some book on taking volunteer vacations where people have to do charitable work on them? 6 copies, 23 waitlist. Pop-history book about two guys probably totally unknown outside of Canada who led a short-lived unsuccessful rebellion within? 5 copies, 23 waitlist, popular enough that some of the libraries have bought an extra copy to offer their patrons.

And this is just the stuff that's been newly available since no earlier than December to an overall population that's apparently smaller than that of most US cities and where e-readers are a mildly pricey novelty sold only in a few stores (no free shipping + taxes & import duties if one gets a Kindle). The numbers get a lot higher for fiction, especially US-bestseller popular fiction.

If we switched over to an individual loan model, we'd burn through our "year"'s worth of licenses sufficient to cover "highest demand" titles in less than 2 months for each, on average.

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

To be clear, I'm not saying this is an optimal system, only that it isn't the train wreck some people imagine it is.

Hey, if HC were honest and upfront about it being a subscription model and offered a clear pricing scheme with logical discount tiers at a reasonable cost as a proposed alternative to the usual, I'd be perfectly happy to consider it.

It's the way they try to pretend they're unilaterally doing it for the good of the libraries which they are so deeply concerned about and want to help protect those poor books from being read for "free", instead of primarily pushing this for the benefit of their bottom line, which is so off-putting.

Makes them look like a pack of weasels, and no one wants to give extra money to weasels when they demand it on top of what's already being given to them.

But at least they're weasels who make their e-books available to the library in the first place, albeit weasels whose new-model e-books I won't bother to check out should they show in the library. I'll be perfectly satisfied with reading library paper copies and old-model HC e-books previously acquired in the catalogue.

[abookreader]

I've talked with the staff member at our library who is the go to Overdrive staff member. At this point she says she can't see adding new Harper Collins books to their catalog with these restrictions. At present time, most mid-level or highly popular books will have a waitlist of 8 to 10 patrons within one day of it being added and it will hit the mid-twenties within a week.

Which pretty much makes it - if you don't catch this book and get on the waiting list when we first list it then just forget about reading it.

Which isn't fair.

She shares my fear that the remaining 2 Big Publishers that allow their books (Penguin and Random House) will copy this policy and she anticipates many patrons calling to gripe at her that (Fill in the blank) book won't be available on Overdrive. They are still discussing what actions they want to take but at this time the general feeling is that it simply isn't an efficient use of library funds to invest in books which will disappear so quickly after purchase.

So hopefully there is an awesome line-up of smaller publishers out there who will be willing to step in and fill the gap, I guess.

[Gwen Morse]

Originally Posted by JeremyR

I dunno, you don't have to be savvy to find the places with the de-DRM tools, all you have to do is just ask in a place like this and you'll be given links publicly. Or told to search for a certain blog (and give the name).

On the other hand, finding pirate ebooks sites isn't so easy. At least it's not open.

I admit I haven't looked, but a lot of times when you do a search for a video game on google, you get links to download it in the first few pages. That is rarely the case with books.

Just search for a book title with the word "torrent" on google. Make sure to put the title in quotes.

You don't have to download anything, but it will give you an idea how easy a particular book is to find.

[kiwipippa]

Originally Posted by Gwen Morse

Just search for a book title with the word "torrent" on google. Make sure to put the title in quotes.

You don't have to download anything, but it will give you an idea how easy a particular book is to find.

I did this just to see whether you were right - you were. Every book I have purchased in the last month was available on a torrent site.