The Vent and Rant Thread

[Freeshadow]

Rumpelteazer that's NOT nice
you tell about a website and blog you have and don't mention the topic
Isn't making people curious and leaving them in the dark some way of torture prohibited by international treaties? C'mon don't be shy - what is it about?

be proud about yourself and what you do -just look at kenny; he shares his stuff with us.

what I wanted to say: as long time ago posted in Neils thread where he asked why people stay @MR - people I met here are mostly very refreshing and interesting partners for discussions and exchange of opinions about a very wide spectrum of topics (readinh has it's sideffects ain't it?) thus I'm always interested if there are some further common denominators apart from the love for books and knowledge.

[SneakySnake]

Originally Posted by kennyc

What he said. Unless it if "forced" it can take a few days to propagate.

All this talk of rooting and now propagating! This high-techie stuff is really just like gardening huh?

[Stitchawl]

Originally Posted by SneakySnake

All this talk of rooting and now propagating! This high-techie stuff is really just like gardening huh?

I thought they were talking about sex...


Stitchawl

[MrPLD]

Originally Posted by Stitchawl

I thought they were talking about sex...

Oh for f**sake goodness sake... I now have coffee all over my keyboard/screen.

:grumble:

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by wyndslash

call me prejudiced, but i am rather leery of downloading ebooks that did not go through an editor/publishing house. i got a free one, and while i thoroughly enjoyed the plot and the characters, there were a few errors but it did jolt me out of the pleasure of reading for a bit (used bust instead of burst). i certainly hope that these types of errors would be lessened in the future as ebooks become more popular and there would be more professional editors doing freelancing or part-time work. i was thinking of buying the rest of the author's series, but i am hesitating...

This has been and is being discussed elsewhere on MR. There's a lot of confusion about the editor's job and what value the editor adds to the finished product.

I know an assortment of published writers. Every one of them credits a good editor with helping them to craft a better book. The editor is a trained second pair of eyes, whose job is to see problems with plot structure, issues with characters, questions of pacing, and all of the other things that can impede a book. Identifying those things that "bust you out of a book" is part of the editor's job. This happens in what is known as a "line edit", and is part of the development process when a publisher acquires a book.

Unsolicited manuscripts submitted to publisher are known as "slush", and the collection that accumulates is the "slush pile". Reading slush is probably an editor's least favorite chore. Most of it is appallingly bad. One of the biggest services editors perform is rejecting manuscripts that are unfit to publish. (A late friend who was an editor commented that a variant of the "80/20 rule" applied. 80% of the manuscripts that came in the mail were automatic rejects. Perhaps 10% if he was lucky were automatic buys. It was the other 10%, the ones that could make the cut with some assistance, that took the majority of the time.)

With the Internet and ebooks, the Internet is now the biggest slush pile in history. The tools are there, and anyone can get "published". The vast majority of such efforts have not had the benefit of an editor, and show it.

It's a problem all over. Editors are skilled professionals. Good editing costs money. Self-published authors are reluctant to spend the money, (assuming they are capable of admitting that they need it.) Regular publishers are increasingly skimping on editing (with proofreading the first to go), because they are trying to keep costs down. A lot of ebook readers who ought to know better just want their ebooks cheap and suggest line edits not be done to save the costs.

Call me prejudiced as well. I have more books that I want to read now than time to read them, and no time to waste panning for the occasional nugget of gold in the mountain of slush. There is decent self-published work out there, but the majority I can think of is by authors who learned their craft, honed their skills and built their audience going through traditional publishing, with sharp eyed editors to identify the problems that needed correcting.

I get traditionally published books, too. And given what I normally read for recreation, there's a good chance I know the author who wrote the book, and the editor who bought and line edited it.
______
Dennis

[wyndslash]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

There is decent self-publsihed work out there, but the majority I can think of is by authors who learned their craft, honed their skills and built their audience going through traditional publishing, with sharp eyed editors to identify the problems that needed correcting.

______
Dennis

that's true. i found a really good author when they first submitted their work to free archives (not traditional publishing, i admit, but most people who submit their work to fiction archives ask for beta-ers lots of times) and soon after that they got published. i'm just waiting for their books to come out on amazon. i have no doubt that their work will be good based on past experiences

random thought: football terms make me giggle

[MrPLD]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

Regular publishers are increasingly skimping on editing (with proofreading the first to go), because they are trying to keep costs down. A lot of ebook readers who ought to know better just want their ebooks cheap and suggest line edits not be done to save the costs.

I've heard somewhere that publishers are now only getting the first 100 pages or so done in an edit, I suppose it's enough to draw the person into buying and "who cares after that, job done, sale made".

The financial pain of getting an edit is quite a lot - that said we pushed ours through, cost quite a bit (over $1000) and subsequently followed up with a proof from another person. It costs but it does also give one a bit more of a sense of security when putting the book out.

Paul.

[wyndslash]

poor editing of books is bad for young readers well, duh xD

@mrpld: good for you! it is quite costly, but at least you have a work you can be proud of!

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by MrPLD

I've heard somewhere that publishers are now only getting the first 100 pages or so done in an edit, I suppose it's enough to draw the person into buying and "who cares after that, job done, sale made".

They're stupid if they are. People probably buy on far less than the first 100 pages, and skimping on the rest is ultimately self defeating.

I did know an editor a while back who lamented that her boss asked why she was "wasting her time" doing a line edit when "the glory was in acquisitions". Gee, I dunno. Maybe because she wanted to publish a good book?

But I expect to see more issues like this because there are simply too many books chasing too few readers, and everyone is trying to cut costs. Skimping on stuff that was once a standard part of the process is a symptom.

The financial pain of getting an edit is quite a lot - that said we pushed ours through, cost quite a bit (over $1000) and subsequently followed up with a proof from another person. It costs but it does also give one a bit more of a sense of security when putting the book out.

An old friend asked for referrals from me. A friend of hers had written a novel set in California in the days when the Spanish ruled the area. It's an area in which she's a subject matter expert, so her friend asked her to read the manuscript.

He had done his research and had his facts straight, but had no idea how to tell a story. But he was a friend, and she didn't want to injure the relationship by saying so. I passed along contact info for a couple of folks I knew who were editors and provided book doctor services. "Tell him you agree he got his facts straight, but don't feel qualified to comment on the literary merit of the work. These folks do editing for a fee and can provide the guidance he needs." That was what she wanted, and she was happy. (I don't know if her friend actually followed up on the leads.)

But I'm sorry, it doesn't matter who you are. The chances are excellent that your manuscript really needs an editor, if only to make a good book better. The first challenge for any author is recognizing that and checking their authorial ego at the door. Many can't, and the results demonstrate it.
______
Dennis

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by wyndslash

that's true. i found a really good author when they first submitted their work to free archives (not traditional publishing, i admit, but most people who submit their work to fiction archives ask for beta-ers lots of times) and soon after that they got published. i'm just waiting for their books to come out on amazon. i have no doubt that their work will be good based on past experiences

Well, assuming they will listen to beta readers.

I poked around in on-line writers groups on occasion. Despite people inviting critique, it became clear rapidly that what most wanted was to be told how wonderful their work was. Honest criticism was not taken well.
______
Dennis

[MrPLD]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

... it became clear rapidly that what most wanted was to be told how wonderful their work was. Honest criticism was not taken well.

There was a couple of wonderful examples of this recently on KB... all was fine until someone threw in a legitimate critique and the thread rapidly degenerated into a series of mud-slinging events.

[wyndslash]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

Well, assuming they will listen to beta readers.

I poked around in on-line writers groups on occasion. Despite people inviting critique, it became clear rapidly that what most wanted was to be told how wonderful their work was. Honest criticism was not taken well.
______
Dennis

yeah, i encounter those people too. i've beta-ed for a few writers before, and they seemed appreciative. i am by no means a professional editor, but it always helps to have someone else look at your work.

[Rumpelteazer]

Originally Posted by Freeshadow

Rumpelteazer that's NOT nice
you tell about a website and blog you have and don't mention the topic
Isn't making people curious and leaving them in the dark some way of torture prohibited by international treaties? C'mon don't be shy - what is it about?

At the moment my website isn't much, I only blog and in the past couple of months mainly book reviews through GoodReads because of the time out problems.

I had made a really nice website but my notebook died before I had uploaded it and after that I couldn't be bothered. Maybe soon or I go for only a blog.

But for those interested:
http://www.biancavanwilligenburg.nl
And blog:
http://www.biancavanwilligenburg.nl/wordpress

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by SneakySnake

All this talk of rooting and now propagating! This high-techie stuff is really just like gardening huh?

Yep. The secret is out now.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Rumpelteazer

At the moment my website isn't much, I only blog and in the past couple of months mainly book reviews through GoodReads because of the time out problems.

I had made a really nice website but my notebook died before I had uploaded it and after that I couldn't be bothered. Maybe soon or I go for only a blog.

But for those interested:
http://www.biancavanwilligenburg.nl
And blog:
http://www.biancavanwilligenburg.nl/wordpress

Very nice. Thank you!