Firmware Update Kindle adds Page Numbers (and more)

[ApK]

Originally Posted by jocampo

An example ...

Teacher: please open the book on page 21
Student: hmmm... I wonder which page is page 21 ... hmmm...

So for students who replaced or would like to replace their heavy text books for their corresponding ebook versions, having a page numbers is a plus. And one of the reason why PDFs are still a valid format and so common for technical documents.

Most PDF text books have hard pages numbers that appear on the displayed pages, so in those cases, it's a non-issue. The Kindle user can flip to the right page just like the DTB user.

If not, if we're talking about just a few students, then just as they would do if they happened to be using a slightly different edition of the DTB (that happened a lot when I was in school) they would check with a neighbor as to what the section or text was, and then could INSTANTLY search for it on the Kindle.

If we're talking about A LOT of students, as I hope will soon be the case, then the teacher should bloody well just say the name of the chapter or section, or first line of text, so the Kindle users can instantly search and zip to it. Actually, since the teacher will probably be using a Kindle, too, why not just say the location?
Then it'll be the poor paper book users who hold up the class while they get to their archaic page numbers.

Come to think of it, I remember quite often in college classes, the teacher would call a page number AND say "That's the section starting with Analysis of widget design" because so many students DID in fact have different page numbers in their editions.

[DMSmillie]

Originally Posted by ApK

By the way...Under 3.1, has anyone seen the 'ranged locations' like '302-318 of 4050' as mentioned previously?

In the few days I've been reading with 3.1, I've been pressing menu now and then to check, and I have not seen them. Just a coincidence, or did they simplify the location display?

When I press MENU, I see percentage, "Page x of y", and "Location m of n", all on the same line just above the progress bar.

Originally Posted by jocampo

An example ...

Teacher: please open the book on page 21
Student: hmmm... I wonder which page is page 21 ... hmmm...

And there's some reason why teachers are incapable of saying "please open the book on page 21, at the paragraph starting 'It was the best of days'"...?

[ApK]

Originally Posted by DMSmillie

When I press MENU, I see percentage, "Page x of y", and "Location m of n", all on the same line just above the progress bar.

Yeah. As discussed earlier in this thread (I think) the Kindle used to frequently display locations as ranges: "Locations x-y of z."

This was probably confusing to lots of users, and I suspect it's why many people were clamoring for...ahem..'real' page number.

If they have in fact eliminated those range displays, great, but I think they are a little too late...if they did it at the beginning...and especially if they labled them 'pages' instead of 'locations' like some other readers do... probably only a small handful of academics would have been asking for 'real' page numbers.

And there's some reason why teachers are incapable of saying "please open the book on page 21, at the paragraph starting 'It was the best of days'"...?

Yeah, I edited my post before I saw this.

[DMSmillie]

Originally Posted by jocampo

Do you expect page numbers on your pbook when you buy? ...

Yes, but then a printed book is printed on physical pages of paper. Guess what? An ebook isn't.

Originally Posted by jocampo

I truly understand your position, but is more a company's position than from user's standpoint. As a user, it will be an extra feature that I can enjoy and use.

I really don't think you do. You continue to propose that Amazon should provide a print book page mapping for ANY book you choose to put on your Kindle. Which is just... ridiculous. You're saying that if I write a book, get it privately printed, then create a MOBI version of it, and sell both the print and ebook versions on my own website, and you buy the ebook and put it on your Kindle, you expect Amazon to get hold of the print book, the ebook, create a print-to-ebook page mapping file, and supply it to you?

[ApK]

Originally Posted by jocampo

Do you expect page numbers on your pbook when you buy? ...

Do you expect page numbers OF SOME OTHER EDITION OF THE BOOK on your pbook when you buy?

[DMSmillie]

Originally Posted by ApK

Yeah. As discussed earlier in this thread (I think) the Kindle used to frequently display locations as ranges: "Locations x-y of z."

Yes - sorry - was only after I hit return that I saw the other reply to that, and realised your focus was on the "ranged" aspect, not on locations per se.

Originally Posted by ApK

This was probably confusing to lots of users, and I suspect it's why many people were clamoring for...ahem..'real' page number.

If they have in fact eliminated those range displays, great, but I think they are a little too late...if they did it at the beginning...and especially if they labled them 'pages' instead of 'locations' like some other readers do... probably only a small handful of academics would have been asking for 'real' page numbers.

To be honest, I doubt it. I think for many it's simply a case of "I'm used to page numbers. I want page numbers!".

Originally Posted by ApK

Yeah, I edited my post before I saw this.

We were both typing at the same time I think.
My comment was in response to what jocampo wrote, not aimed at you, ApK.

[FF2]

Originally Posted by ApK

I disagree.


By the way...Under 3.1, has anyone seen the 'ranged locations' like '302-318 of 4050' as mentioned previously?

In the few days I've been reading with 3.1, I've been pressing menu now and then to check, and I have not seen them. Just a coincidence, or did they simplify the location display?

ApK

(odd, twice I clicked on quote and Firefox offered to open an xxx.phx something or other file rather than giving me this quote window)

I just got 3.1 this morning. I, too, only get the "current location range" of xxx-yyy but not xxx-yyy of zzzz. No ZZZZ value so no idea how far into range. I guess now they expect the % to be sufficient. Since the book I'm reading is not Amazon, it does not have pages.

One does tend to wonder if "fixes" are really fixes?

[ApK]

Originally Posted by FF2

I, too, only get the "current location range" of xxx-yyy but not xxx-yyy of zzzz. No ZZZZ value so no idea how far into range.

I've never seen that. When you say "I, too..." who else do you mean?

[jocampo]

Originally Posted by DMSmillie

Yes, but then a printed book is printed on physical pages of paper. Guess what? An ebook isn't.



I really don't think you do. You continue to propose that Amazon should provide a print book page mapping for ANY book you choose to put on your Kindle. Which is just... ridiculous. You're saying that if I write a book, get it privately printed, then create a MOBI version of it, and sell both the print and ebook versions on my own website, and you buy the ebook and put it on your Kindle, you expect Amazon to get hold of the print book, the ebook, create a print-to-ebook page mapping file, and supply it to you?

Providing pages to ebooks is a good advantage for lot of users, especially those who use textbooks. That proposal could be ridiculous for you but not for me and others. In fact, the more features Amazon provides, the stronger the customer relationship is going to be. Customers are not going to stop buying from Amazon just because the device can provide certain features to books that have not even bought on the store itself. Amazon biggest and stronger selling point is not books, but its service and the promise of a good and fast delivery. That's why they are what they are now and people maintain their fidelity.

And by the way, not because a book is in an electronic format, has no pages or cannot have pages. Let me use the PDF example again. PDF is an electronic format, and has pages anyway.

[DMSmillie]

Originally Posted by jocampo

Providing pages to ebooks is a good advantage for lot of users, especially those who use textbooks. That proposal could be ridiculous for you but not for me and others.

You continue to avoid the specifics of how exactly you expect Amazon to provide this for ANY and ALL books, not just those they sell.

[jocampo]

Originally Posted by DMSmillie

You continue to avoid the specifics of how exactly you expect Amazon to provide this for ANY and ALL books, not just those they sell.

Inside the format specs and as part of the firmware code. Other ereaders does the same, like Sony.

Page numbers is key for academics. You cannot communicate, interact, study or exchange ideas about the same book with partners, if there are no pages, makes the task more difficult. And is not impossible, and won't hurt sales at all, actually, will probably boost sales, attracting folks who need that feature. If was not relevant for Amazon, they were not included that at all on this recent firmware.

If a publisher wants to catch the academic world (notice I've not said Amazon) they will have to include pages on their books. And that market is a huge one, those are a lot of potential customers out there. And if the device you use or want provides that, you will buy it for sure.

On my case, page numbers is not a plus, I am sure it is not for you either, but I don't think it's ridiculous asking for that.

[DMSmillie]

Originally Posted by jocampo

Inside the format specs and as part of the firmware code. Other ereaders does the same, like Sony.

Those aren't print page numbers - they're "pseudo" page numbers, derived from simply chunking the content into blocks, approximating the number of characters/words one might find on an average page. Amazon is providing a direct mapping between a specified print version of a book and its Kindle ebook version. How exactly would Amazon code such a page mapping for every ebook out there into their firmware?

Originally Posted by jocampo

Page numbers is key for academics. You cannot communicate, interact, study or exchange ideas about the same book with partners, if there are no pages, makes the task more difficult.

If, by "page numbers", you are referring to artificially calculated pseudo page numbers, which are not directly linked to a specific print edition, how do they assist academics any more or less than location numbers, since they would only be relevant when accessing a specific ebook version?

Your previous example of the teacher saying "turn to page 21" can only work if the page numbers provided in an ebook match the page numbering in a designated print version of the book. Pseudo page numbers won't help.

Originally Posted by jocampo

On my case, page numbers is not a plus, I am sure it is not for you either, but I don't think it's ridiculous asking for that.

You keep twisting what I've said. At no point did I say it was ridiculous to ask for page numbers (although, separately from this discussion, I do think it's simply a case of people being unable to differentiate between the concept of "book" and the physical medium they grew up associating with "book"). What I keep saying is ridiculous is to expect Amazon to provide direct page mappings to existing print versions of books they don't themselves publish or sell. Which is what you originally complained about them not doing. How exactly would you suggest they go about doing that? Not pseudo page numbers. Exact and accurate mapping between the ebook and an existing print version of the book.

[jocampo]

DMSmillie,

You forget that Amazon sells their books in azw format, which is a proprietary format implemented by Amazon, not publishers. If you read my previous post, you'll find the answer to your question.

And no, it is not ridiculous to expect that from Amazon. Maybe not something that they are willing to do, but not ridiculous.

And you are wrong. Many epub books use the page numbers of the printed versions. The main idea is provide a way to make references to certain lines or discuss an article, for example. Of course it has to be the same ebook version, but that's the same issue you will face with pbooks of different publishers.

[DMSmillie]

No, you haven't answered my question. Clearly not going to either, so little point in continuing this discussion.

[rogerinnyc]

Just to throw in my two cents. I love that Amazon has added page numbers because I'm one of those folks who now and then buy both the hardcover and the ebook -- the hardcover to read at home in my comfy reading chair and to keep and display on my shelves; the ebook for when I'm traveling or otherwise out and about. Not always, of course, as this can get fairly expensive.

The page numbers now make it very easy to switch back and forth between the two formats. Now if only Amazon could begin offering purchase discounts for those of us (maybe I'm the only one?) who occasionally do buy in both formats. Although that's probably a whole new set of negotiations with each publisher, so I'm not holding my breath....