Kindle e-Book piracy accelerates - from CNET

[The Terminator]

Oh come on the books are being read at the library for free ( I know the library pays to lease them) but they don't pay money per read. And what the heck is the difference of buying a used book and pirating an E-book?

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by NVash

You bring up another good point. I see many people selling pirated CDs and DVDs on the streets, subways, bus, you name it. Why doesnt anyone ever say anything about them?

Or all the people selling "second hand" ebooks on Ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Stephen-King-C...-/180628960880

(one of many).

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

There are other examples, including Radiohead's "In Rainbows." (Yeah, those guys again. ) They released the album independently, without DRM, and for whatever price the downloader wanted to pay -- including nothing. Yet it was still downloaded illegally (or if you prefer, "infringingly") over 500,000 times via P2P in its first week. It's still unclear if that cost them sales, but it is quite clear that merely offering DRM-free content is not sufficient to discourage people from pirating.

That would be down to visibility. The pirate sites will get lots more visitors than some random band site. The most famous pirate site was ranked 97th in the world for number of unique visitors per day a while ago. Random-band.com will only ever get visits from people who have already heard of Random Band.

Anyway, piracy didn't seem to hurt Radiohead much:
http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/..._rainbows.html

[rogue_librarian]

Originally Posted by THE TERMINATOR

.. books are being read at the library for free ( I know the library pays to lease them) but they don't pay money per read.

They do, actually, in quite a number of jurisdictions, perhaps most famously the British one. It's not much, just a few pennies, but there is compensation based on the number of times a book is lent.

And what the heck is the difference of buying a used book and pirating an E-book?

There is only one used copy, and while you can sell it multiple times it cannot be read by more than one person at a time. An ebook can be copied an infinite number of times with ease.

[snipenekkid]

Originally Posted by THE TERMINATOR

Oh come on the books are being read at the library for free ( I know the library pays to lease them) but they don't pay money per read. And what the heck is the difference of buying a used book and pirating an E-book?

Originally Posted by rogue_librarian

There is only one used copy, and while you can sell it multiple times it cannot be read by more than one person at a time. An ebook can be copied an infinite number of times with ease.

Used book sales are the real target of the publishers. If there is one area that I am willing to bet the entire industry loathes it's the used market. Heck, I bet they are even considering targeting library "take one, leave one" paperback exchange racks.

But raising prices along with the ever dropping price of readers makes zero sense. Even if the cost of entry into the ebook market for a customer keeps dropping the fact that a potential customers sees even the ebook version 3x-10x more costly than a used book including the shipping the customer is going to feel cheated for buying new-retail. No idea how to address the matter but I know for me for the most part, if the ebook is over $6 I am not going to buy it as a recreational read.

Another comparison is if you buy properly in an Audible account you can actually buy an audiobook version of a title for LESS than the ebook price. Now someone tell me which has a higher cost overhead? And really, if more people listened to modern audiobooks I am willing to bet their preference will lean toward the audio version if the prices are similar to ebooks.

So, I guess I just don't understand the pricing model for books. Not when a version where the production overhead has to be at least 10x greater than the ebook version yet is priced very close to the ebook version when all discounts are applied and the buyer spends wisely as sales/promotions come along. I still think if it was possible to get the two different publishers to agree that bundled ebook with audiobook versions would be a real winning option for a LOT of people and get them to buy a lot more of both options.

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by THE TERMINATOR

Oh come on the books are being read at the library for free ( I know the library pays to lease them) but they don't pay money per read. And what the heck is the difference of buying a used book and pirating an E-book?

Only one person can read a used book or a library book at the same time. You can only share a used book or a library book with one person at the same time.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by rogue_librarian

There is only one used copy, and while you can sell it multiple times it cannot be read by more than one person at a time. An ebook can be copied an infinite number of times with ease.

Theoretically, though I think you would be surprised at just how low the download statistics are for ebooks. Neither an unauthorised download or a second hand paperback will put money in the hands of publishers. Yet they both still bring in new readers who would never have read those books otherwise. Which is something the author ultimately benefits from.

If publishers ever stop putting out new paperbacks, eventually the stock of second hand ones will dry up. Not much of the market for second hand books is likely to switch to new hardback prices for ebooks, so if there is no unauthorised source for cheap or free ebooks those readers will be lost.

[Namekuseijin]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

Neither an unauthorised download or a second hand paperback will put money in the hands of publishers. Yet they both still bring in new readers who would never have read those books otherwise. Which is something the author ultimately benefits from.

how? Is fame enough to put food on the table?

They bring in new readers, but why these new readers would be interested to buy one of his other books if they can continue getting them for free? What's the incentive? To get all warm inside for having helped someone get his fair income?

[NVash]

If they cancel out second hand books that would be quite a bullet to their own foot. I remember way back when, when the PS3 was in production and everyone thought the games could only play on one system. Remember those days? There was a huge uproar, many people didnt want to buy it because of the fact that if they didnt like the game they were stuck with it. Of course we all found out that wasnt the case later on but were not talking about then. Look at the PSP Go. It failed horribly. Why? I think one main reason is the complete and total lack of space and the fact that it doesnt have UMDs so not only can people NOT use their old games but they also have to buy them back AND they have a very small amount of space to work with. That thing was one of the dumbest ideas I ever saw and Im surprised it made it past being just a bad idea.

But then as I type this I think, look at Kindles. Havent they killed second hand books? You cant go to a used bookstore and buy a 'gently used' ebook. You cant sit back and say 'Ill get such and such a book when the price drops'. No, thats not happening at all. So some people just buy used ones, scan them and make that into an ebook. Isnt that technically piracy as well even though they already got money for it? Whether or not the same book exists as an ebook might not matter, it could just be the price. Say its $15 for the ebook and $1 in a yard sale or something. Which would you choose?

Heres another question. Did they factor in books that are ONLY available on the Darknet? Books that may very well be a sale if they converted it to ebook form but havent for whatever reason? Doubtful. Why mention that?

[Lemurion]

Originally Posted by snipenekkid

Used book sales are the real target of the publishers. If there is one area that I am willing to bet the entire industry loathes it's the used market. Heck, I bet they are even considering targeting library "take one, leave one" paperback exchange racks.

But raising prices along with the ever dropping price of readers makes zero sense. Even if the cost of entry into the ebook market for a customer keeps dropping the fact that a potential customers sees even the ebook version 3x-10x more costly than a used book including the shipping the customer is going to feel cheated for buying new-retail. No idea how to address the matter but I know for me for the most part, if the ebook is over $6 I am not going to buy it as a recreational read.

Another comparison is if you buy properly in an Audible account you can actually buy an audiobook version of a title for LESS than the ebook price. Now someone tell me which has a higher cost overhead? And really, if more people listened to modern audiobooks I am willing to bet their preference will lean toward the audio version if the prices are similar to ebooks.

So, I guess I just don't understand the pricing model for books. Not when a version where the production overhead has to be at least 10x greater than the ebook version yet is priced very close to the ebook version when all discounts are applied and the buyer spends wisely as sales/promotions come along. I still think if it was possible to get the two different publishers to agree that bundled ebook with audiobook versions would be a real winning option for a LOT of people and get them to buy a lot more of both options.

I agree with most of what you're saying about the pricing of ebooks - I for one look for ebooks of current paperbacks at paperback prices or lower.

What I don't agree with is your take on audiobooks: I really don't think most readers will take them up in favor of ebooks because they're a very different experience.

I love reading, not so fond of listening. Audiobooks just don't interest me. (And before you go on about modern ones being much better, I'm more than willing to stipulate that they are, but it still doesn't make them desirable for me.)

[wvcherrybomb]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

Or all the people selling "second hand" ebooks on Ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Stephen-King-C...-/180628960880

(one of many).

Holy crap! I had no idea this was allowed. I'm going to get rich!

I don't know why this article is targeting Kindle books. In my experience, mobi format ebooks are certainly the minority on the darkside.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by Namekuseijin

how? Is fame enough to put food on the table?

They bring in new readers, but why these new readers would be interested to buy one of his other books if they can continue getting them for free? What's the incentive? To get all warm inside for having helped someone get his fair income?

The same reason they would buy a hardback in ye olden dayes -- because they want to read it as soon as it comes out and don't want to wait for the pirate edition. First day sales have a big impact on product placement, which will bring in more readers.

But people buying books isn't the only benefit writers get from extra (free) readers. They get reviews, mentions on blogs, discussions in various places. It all helps to build the writer's brand.

[Grimm]

Originally Posted by rogue_librarian

You can't outprice a pirate, no way. They have essentially zero cost, i.e. pure profit.

Except in the case of ebook piracy there is no money being made by the pirate, they are sharing, not selling.

NOT justifying at all, just making a point.

[elcreative]

Maybe not in your country but there are other places in the world that have things called the Public Lending Right which does link loans to payment...

Originally Posted by THE TERMINATOR

Oh come on the books are being read at the library for free ( I know the library pays to lease them) but they don't pay money per read. And what the heck is the difference of buying a used book and pirating an E-book?

[kovidgoyal]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

Please re-read my full post.

Let me spell it out for you for you.

The claim that piracy exists, or even grows, in the absence of DRM does not imply that DRM does not encourage piracy. The only way you can use an empirical study to imply that is if your study managed to magically contrast two scenarios:

1) Remove DRM, wait two years, measure change in piracy
2) Rewind time, do not remove DRM, measure change in piracy

Now compare the change in piracy rates of 1) and 2). And even that is really just an educated guess in a system as complex as human society.

The best that can be done on this subject is to point out ways that the existence of DRM could affect piracy.

I pointed out one such way, it raises the relative value of pirated products.

If you want to argue that the existence of DRM discourages piracy, then you need to point to ways that the existence of DRM provides a disincentive to piracy. I can't think of a single one, can you?