Ebook Membership

[Belle2Be]

Originally Posted by Joykins

OK, I'm one of the 1-4% of individuals you are targeting. I read 100-500 books per year. So let me give you my opinion:

I would probably not pay $30 (or even $25) to buy 6 books a month.

Keep in mind, I can buy backlist e-books or bargain-priced books for about $4 (or less) each. This would actually be a raise in price for some of the books I buy.

I can borrow books (nook/Kindle borrowing, Overdrive library) for free. Also, I "buy" any promotional freebie that looks interesting, plus I can get my classics for free. So you're competing with freeware.

If I'm going to commit to buying 6 books a month at $5 each, sight unseen, I'm going to want to know that you are going to provide 6 books that I REALLY WANT TO BUY per month. I need to know that your selections are such that I would want to buy 6 books a month from your catalog.

Now, will that be 6 books a month, or some other number, or an unlimited download? If it is unlimited, I join maybe once a year or so and download everything in your catalog that sounds interesting--hundreds of books, no doubt. You'll never make money at that and the publishers would never allow it. So you need some kind of limitation.



As a voracious reader (and you are *targeting* voracious readers, remember?) for the most part I would much rather rent than buy. I know maybe YOU want to keep everything you read, but are you this kind of reader? Much of what I read, I read only once, so I would not pay a premium to buy. But to get a good rental model going that is superior to Overdrive and nook/kindle borrowing, I think a model similar to Netflix would be what *I* would want:

1) a limited number of "check outs" AT A TIME (like, between 1 and 4). (keeps abuse from occurring)-- few people read more than 3 or 4 books at a time, anyway.

2) an unlimited borrowing period (I can keep the book until I finish it, even if it's months, but I can't get a new one until I check the old one back in--I'm pretty sure this is how Netflix makes its $, by the way, the people who hold onto a movie for months); of course, all borrowing periods expire when the membership ends.

3) No or minimal waiting lists. There are 47 people waiting to read Bill Bryson's _At Home_ at my library, for example. I want the book when I am in the mood to read it, but I don't want the guilt of blocking 47 other people from accessing it while I wait to read it because I already am reading something else....

4) An option to buy. If the book is really that wonderful, I'd buy it with a click from you--but only if you're underselling other booksellers like Sony or B&N or Amazon. (I know Agency pricing, blah blah).

The publishers aren't going to let you do this DRM-free, and you'll need some rights management software to manage the loans, probably more than one if you plan on lending out books for Kindle.

The reason I prefer rental to purchase? Let's assume I could pay $30/month and get 6 books to keep, or $30/month and check out 4 books AT A TIME. Easy, I get to read 6 books for $30 under the first model, which is a reasonable price, no doubt--but I read 40 or so books a month, let's say I get 15 of them from your rental service, that is 15 books to read for $30, a much better bargain. Again, remember I don't care about keeping most of these books, if I like one enough to think I'll read it again and again, I'll buy it in addition to the $30 I spend on rental.

I read about half as much, but agree 100%.

I do want to add, that I still wont pay $5 to rent a book that is $7 to buy. $4 maybe...

[elcreative]

I read at least twice as much and I want to keep my books or sell them... my definition of a really good book is one that I want to re-read some day... we are going backwards all the time... the whole point of PCs concerned what the letters stand for - Personal Computers - and the idea was to liberate us from the high priests of MainFrames and let everyone handle their own content. This applies to all personal devices whereas the rental idea puts all the control back in the hands of the few...

Originally Posted by Belle2Be

I read about half as much, but agree 100%.

I do want to add, that I still wont pay $5 to rent a book that is $7 to buy. $4 maybe...

[Belle2Be]

Originally Posted by elcreative

I read at least twice as much and I want to keep my books or sell them... my definition of a really good book is one that I want to re-read some day... we are going backwards all the time... the whole point of PCs concerned what the letters stand for - Personal Computers - and the idea was to liberate us from the high priests of MainFrames and let everyone handle their own content. This applies to all personal devices whereas the rental idea puts all the control back in the hands of the few...

But when you're renting, you're paying less for the same thing, with the exception of keeping it. For me, it works, and if I really like a book, then I'll buy it. We aren't going backwards though, ebooks are an undefined territory.

[crich70]

Originally Posted by vrodbrad

First for the class we have to right up a business plan and this is not to start up an actual business. Where we would get the books would be from publishers and authors. We would not have DRM restrictions and all books would be able to work on all devices.

First of all the word is Write not right. If I went on a site and saw misspellings in the FAQ about what I would get for my money I'd have some reservations about the site right then. The first impression that I as a customer would get might make or break my enthusiasm for the site just as if I were to go into a physical store and see that the public restrooms were dirty. I'd wonder if the restroom was dirty if the customer service would be what it should be etc. As far as working on all devices do you mean you would have different formats or that you would provide only basic text files? Most Ereaders seem to be able to handle plain text, but not all readers seem to be able to handle the same formats other than that. For example (if I remember right) the Kindle can't read epub books. It's the fact that not all ereaders can read the same formats that results in a lot of sites having the same book for sale in different formats. Usually its things like HTML, LIT, Mobi, and PDF documents, and there are the epubs and other formats I'm sure as well.

[crich70]

One thing I've noticed that Amazon does with its books (and bigfish games does with its game files so that it's not just one product that does it) is that samples are available. In the case of the game you get to download and play the game for an hr and with the book you get a partial sample copy of the book for free so you can see if it's something you want to read. I believe Smashwords also has samples of books for sale. That sounds like a good idea to me. Not everyone has the same internet connection so being able to download a sample of the book rather than spending the money and finding out you don't like it might be an idea as well.

Originally Posted by frquixote

Joykins is pointing to the fundamental problem of most such clubs, even in the DTB world. I used to belong to the History Book Club several decades ago and found that they seldom carried anything I was interested in beyond the six for one penny deal they used as the enticement. Made it tough to find three books to fulfill the minimum. Fortunately, I didn't have to pay a fixed amount each month or I REALLY would have been irritated by the poor selection.

[BookCat]

I'd noticed the same misspellings and they bothered me a little also. However, I've heard that the latest incarnation of MS Word has context-sensitive spell-check which would catch the type of error which vrodbrad has made. Traditional spell-checking would pass them as okay; the words are correctly spelled but the wrong word: right/write, there/their/, etc.

[Joykins]

Or you could just hire a copyeditor. They're good at that sort of thing.

[Worldwalker]

Originally Posted by Belle2Be

But when you're renting, you're paying less for the same thing, with the exception of keeping it.

Which makes it, in fact, not the same thing.

When we moved, the guys at P.O.D.S. told us not to worry about overloading our container; it's almost impossible. They didn't reckon with our books. We almost sprained their forklift. I stopped counting boxes at 70 cubic feet. I don't want to rent books -- and yes, I know many industries are moving towards a "rent not buy" model, including software -- "really, it's a benefit to keep paying us for what you already have, because you get all the newest bugs automatically!" -- but I still want to own things, not just borrow someone else's things. And I'm fairly sure that I'm not the only one who feels this way.

[queentess]

Originally Posted by Belle2Be

But when you're renting, you're paying less for the same thing, with the exception of keeping it. For me, it works, and if I really like a book, then I'll buy it. We aren't going backwards though, ebooks are an undefined territory.

Actually, no. My mortgage is less than I was paying in rent, but ends up being a little more than rent when you include property taxes. But I will, at some point, stop paying on my mortgage. You pay rent forever. Buying is cheaper in the long run.

[Worldwalker]

Originally Posted by BookCat

I'd noticed the same misspellings and they bothered me a little also. However, I've heard that the latest incarnation of MS Word has context-sensitive spell-check which would catch the type of error which vrodbrad has made. Traditional spell-checking would pass them as okay; the words are correctly spelled but the wrong word: right/write, there/their/, etc.

Or you could just learn what the words mean, so you wouldn't have to guess which spelling transcribes which sound.

This whole thing comes from children being taught, not the meanings of words, but the means to reproduce sounds from those words, then understand the sounds. Not only does this produce people who can't understand any word they haven't heard, but it produces people who don't know if they mean "hear" or "here" because they don't look at it as hearing being the function of the ear, while here is a place like there. They're just guessing at which spelling is "right" for the sound "heer".

And that makes me think of foreign languages, and one of the useful things I learned from a teacher who I didn't properly appreciate until much later: If you learn a foreign language, you will never become fluent if you only speak it by translating it to your native language. If you have to translate el libro into the book and only then recognize it as meaning that thing with covers and pages, you'll always be waiting for your mental translator, and never really understand the language; only by mentally filing "el libro" as a sort of a synonym, along side "textbook", "volume", "tome", etc., to be used similarly in the proper context (in this case, when speaking Spanish), will you be able to speak it as an actual language.

People used to laugh about unintelligent people who moved their lips when they read. Now it's hard to find someone who doesn't, and even most of them still don't actually understand what they're reading; they understand what they're hearing, and have to translate the words into sounds first (even if they keep their lips still). That's one reason, by the way, that people for whom English is a foreign language tend to use it more correctly than native speakers: in many cases, they learned to read and write it (usually online) before they heard it spoken, so they learned what the words mean, not what they sound like. "Hear" and "here" are two totally different words to someone who's read them but rarely or never heard them, so he naturally uses the proper one.

When I see a mistake in homophones, like "right" for "write", I know I'm dealing with someone who reads little and understands less. It's not a mistake someone who reads extensively would make. You can't read very fast if you have to sound out every word, and you can't read a lot if you don't read fast, at least not if you have anything else that needs to be done, which nearly everybody does.

And the smartest word processor in the world isn't going to impart knowledge of the written word to the ignorant. The only cure for ignorance is learning, and while other people can offer you things to learn, it is still something you have to do yourself.

[Anke Wehner]

I completely agree that learning how to spell is better than relying on computer aid.

Originally Posted by Worldwalker

That's one reason, by the way, that people for whom English is a foreign language tend to use it more correctly than native speakers: in many cases, they learned to read and write it (usually online) before they heard it spoken, so they learned what the words mean, not what they sound like. "Hear" and "here" are two totally different words to someone who's read them but rarely or never heard them, so he naturally uses the proper one.

I learned writing and reading English simultaneously at school, but I think even that helped with keeping homonyms straight. I didn't have years of mostly hearing them, and therefore perceiving them as identical, to confuse issues.

Mind, I suspect in turn my accent would be bad if I actually spoke English rather than typing it...

[elcreative]

But that is the whole point, "with the exception of keeping it." So now I'm renting everything and it's all accessible via the cloud... then my parents become ill and I spend the next ten years of my life looking after them... my income drops to near zero as state help isn't worth the paper it's printed on... now I can't afford to access the cloud and rent so I've got nothing except the books, computer(s), software etc that I own outright... they're mine not some faceless entity that decides I can no longer have access because I'm poorer...

Originally Posted by Belle2Be

But when you're renting, you're paying less for the same thing, with the exception of keeping it. For me, it works, and if I really like a book, then I'll buy it. We aren't going backwards though, ebooks are an undefined territory.

[Anke Wehner]

Uh, nobody is arguing that you should be unable to buy books if you want to.

More like, the option to read an ebook by "renting" for a low sum, rather than shilling out the full sales price and if you don't like the book being stuck with a file you can't resell, might be attractive for the kind of voracious reader who read most books they read only once.

[queentess]

Originally Posted by Worldwalker

This whole thing comes from children being taught, not the meanings of words, but the means to reproduce sounds from those words, then understand the sounds. Not only does this produce people who can't understand any word they haven't heard, but it produces people who don't know if they mean "hear" or "here" because they don't look at it as hearing being the function of the ear, while here is a place like there. They're just guessing at which spelling is "right" for the sound "heer".

Two things really helped me grasp spelling: 1. reading! and 2. learning some Latin (the base language for English). It's amazing how many words I don't know, but I can take an educated guess at the meaning simply because I know some basic Latin.

Originally Posted by Worldwalker

And that makes me think of foreign languages, and one of the useful things I learned from a teacher who I didn't properly appreciate until much later: If you learn a foreign language, you will never become fluent if you only speak it by translating it to your native language. If you have to translate el libro into the book and only then recognize it as meaning that thing with covers and pages, you'll always be waiting for your mental translator, and never really understand the language; only by mentally filing "el libro" as a sort of a synonym, along side "textbook", "volume", "tome", etc., to be used similarly in the proper context (in this case, when speaking Spanish), will you be able to speak it as an actual language.

There comes a point in learning a foreign language when you begin to think in that language. That's when you know you really have it.

[Worldwalker]

Originally Posted by queentess

There comes a point in learning a foreign language when you begin to think in that language. That's when you know you really have it.

I remember the first time I dreamed in a foreign language. It was a rather weird experience. I was in Panama, and for the first time I was actually speaking Spanish regularly instead of just studying it in school, and I dreamed in it a couple of times. I think it was a kind of hyper-awareness, the way a student driver twitches their feet when they're a passenger after a lesson.

Now, what's really weird is that not all that long ago, I dreamed of being able to speak German. I can't; I can understand enough of what I read to make out the sense of it a lot of the time, as a side-effect of some research, but I can't actually communicate. But I dreamed I was talking to someone in German ... and when I woke up, I couldn't understand what I remembered of what I'd been saying. Unfortunately, like most dreams, all the details vanished like snow in San Diego, so I don't know if my subconscious has actually learned more German than my conscious mind can access, or if I was dreaming in gibberish and remembering it as German. It made for a weird dream and a weirder awakening, to say the least.

Reading has to be as internalized a process as speaking. You can't read "the book" and first sound it out ... "thuh ... buuk..." and only then recognize what those sounds mean, not if you want to be able to read even one language like my former co-worker could speak two. You have to see "the book" and think "pages and covers and words", not think of the sound that means that to you.

Or, of course, you could move your lips when you read, and never really know whether it was "their" or "they're" or "there" you meant when you write ... but hopefully, we can do better than that.