Will the next booming profession be copy editor?

[wyndslash]

i must be a snob. i can't read a book with grammatical errors in it D; there was one time when i read a sample, and there was an error, and I just stopped reading.

[Mortis]

What Maggie Leung said.

A proof reader in a commercial printing plant earns about (CDN) 50K/year base, and they would be expected to proof at most 50-70 tabloid size pages/day. Plus maybe 30 more pages would be undertaken as the presses were doing make readies, so on the fly, these would only be content proofing, not spelling, punctuation or grammar.

I doubt a good copy editor would do more than 20 pages a day. I could be wrong, but I am sure there are a few people on this forum much more qualified than I when it comes to copy editing/proofing of novels.

[RolandD]

Originally Posted by Maggie Leung

Since you're offering services, how long does it take you to read a book? Then estimate how long it would take you to edit one page, say if I gave you a letter to edit. Then multiply that by 400 and factor in that you'd have to look up stuff, leave notes where stuff doesn't make sense, consult with the author, etc.

If you're going to edit 400 pages in 10 hours, how much time are you going to spend per page? You will have less than two minutes per page to do all of the above.

You'll have 1.5 minutes per page, actually. For extensive grammatical errors, that wouldn't be enough, but for typos, minor grammar and punctuation, 1.5-2.5 minutes per page should be sufficient. Even at five minutes per page, we're talking about $9.00 per hour. No, that's not enough to live on, but we're talking about doing this as a hobby. Nine bucks an hour, for something you can do in your underwear is great.

[Maggie Leung]

Originally Posted by RolandD

You'll have 1.5 minutes per page, actually. For extensive grammatical errors, that wouldn't be enough, but for typos, minor grammar and punctuation, 1.5-2.5 minutes per page should be sufficient. Even at five minutes per page, we're talking about $9.00 per hour. No, that's not enough to live on, but we're talking about doing this as a hobby. Nine bucks an hour, for something you can do in your underwear is great.

Yes, I rounded to two minutes to give you wiggle room. If you can edit at that pace and someone will hire you, go for it.

[RolandD]

Originally Posted by Maggie Leung

Yes, I rounded to two minutes to give you wiggle room. If you can edit at that pace and someone will hire you, go for it.

Go back and read this thread again. The discussion was about independent writers not being able to afford have a copy editor clean up their self published eBooks. Simple spelling, punctuation, grammar and formatting errors. I was trying to present a plausible and feasible alternative to PROFESSIONAL copy editors.

[Maggie Leung]

Originally Posted by RolandD

Go back and read this thread again. The discussion was about independent writers not being able to afford have a copy editor clean up their self published eBooks. Simple spelling, punctuation, grammar and formatting errors. I was trying to present a plausible and feasible alternative to PROFESSIONAL copy editors.

Yes, I'm familiar with the thread. I posted to it previously. As I said, there's no reason you or other hobbyists can't offer services.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Putting the value of the profession aside for a moment, the role of pro copy editor was tailor-made for the world of centralized and industrialized publications and communications systems. We are rapidly entering a world of decentralized publications/communications, which by its nature cannot afford a large infrastructure or teams of personnel. Because of this, there is little room for a pro copy editor, even if there's a need.

This suggests that some of the most vital duties of copy editors will fall upon the creative individuals, some will fall upon automation (computers), and the rest will fall by the wayside... as it has gone for many other professions that fell victim to decentralization. This doesn't mean that copy editors will somehow become unnecessary in the future... just that the decentralized publishers/communicators will largely be forced by circumstance to provide for themselves, and won't be providing employment for many of them.

Like the trolley-car drivers of old, many of them found employment operating the trolley's replacement, the bus... but few of them found employment driving people's cars.

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

Putting the value of the profession aside for a moment, the role of pro copy editor was tailor-made for the world of centralized and industrialized publications and communications systems. We are rapidly entering a world of decentralized publications/communications, which by its nature cannot afford a large infrastructure or teams of personnel. Because of this, there is little room for a pro copy editor, even if there's a need.

Only authors who want to actually sell books will require a pro copy editor.
Decentralized publications that do not avail themselves of copy editors will fail. It's that simple.

This suggests that some of the most vital duties of copy editors will fall upon the creative individuals, some will fall upon automation (computers), and the rest will fall by the wayside... as it has gone for many other professions that fell victim to decentralization. This doesn't mean that copy editors will somehow become unnecessary in the future... just that the decentralized publishers/communicators will largely be forced by circumstance to provide for themselves, and won't be providing employment for many of them.

I don't know how many will be employed, but the sale of edited books will trounce the sale of unedited books.

People do not want to waste their time reading first draft drivel. Just as a person who wants to be a landlord will need to come up with a way to buy a rental house, a person who wants to be a successful author will need to find a way to pay for an editor. Or he will not be a successful author.

Like the trolley-car drivers of old, many of them found employment operating the trolley's replacement, the bus... but few of them found employment driving people's cars.

Cars were an improvement over the trolley in almost every way. Unedited books are worse in every way.

Just as podiobooks.com has not had any meaningful effect on audible.com, unedited books will remain a niche market frequented only by people who are extremely price sensitive and have a lot of free time.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

Cars were an improvement over the trolley in almost every way. Unedited books are worse in every way.

Obviously, it depends on how you look at it: Major personal investment to buy and maintain a vehicle; licensing; security against theft, damage and loss (hey, that's like DRM!); oil-based economy; traffic; pollution; fast-food culture; obesity and ill-health from lack of exercise. The way I see it, cars aren't better than busses in every way... they've contributed significantly to the erosion of American culture and infrastructure.

The same can be said about unedited books: The assumption that no author can edit their own book and create a good product is simply ludicrous (not to mention the unspoken corollary that every pro editor will produce silk from a sow's ear). Every touch of an editor removes a bit of an author's voice, and substitutes the editor's own. Editors homogenize... not usually a positive when considering creativity.

As I said, there's no reason to expect editors to go away. But the decentralized publishing and communications industries will survive largely without them, having winnowed itself down to the few who can do the work effectively without their aid, and those who move on because they can't stand the heat.

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

I don't know how many will be employed, but the sale of edited books will trounce the sale of unedited books.

That will happen because the centralized industries have the monetary resources to get their product out front at the major distributors. Random House could sell a hell of a lot more than me, if they didn't have a single editor on staff, just because they can afford product placement fees.

Whereas I could have the greatest editor in the country working for me, but without advertising and product placement, struggle to sell 20 books.

[elcreative]

Self-editing brings to mind the saying about a lawyer who is his own client...

[Maggie Leung]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

The same can be said about unedited books: The assumption that no author can edit their own book and create a good product is simply ludicrous (not to mention the unspoken corollary that every pro editor will produce silk from a sow's ear). Every touch of an editor removes a bit of an author's voice, and substitutes the editor's own. Editors homogenize... not usually a positive when considering creativity.

A good editor helps a writer say things more clearly and fluidly without changing the writer's voice. That's why editing requires communication (and why time is needed to edit well).

There are plenty of bad editors, just as there are plenty of bad writers.

Any writer who thinks that he can edit himself is a fool. Even editors know that they can't edit themselves, lol.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by RolandD

So, how long would it take?

For a simple novel that's in good shape, around 10 pages an hour would be feasible. So for a 400-page book, at least 40 hours.

[Keryl Raist]

I'm a little late to the party, but this is a really interesting thread.

I'm an indie writer. I wrote a huge book, 270k words. Scraping up the money for professional editing was not easy. Then to add insult to injury, my editor added an error and missed two errors for every two errors he fixed, and he was three months late in finishing the project. Not to put too fine a point on it, but with help like that, most of us are pretty sure we can do just as well ourselves. And a lot of us in the indie world have ended up with help like that. Now, will I get an editor for my next book? Yes. (Will it be the same one? Ohhh nooo!)

As a reviewer of indie books I've had the honor of getting to know a lot of indie writers, and to this date I've run into precisely one who didn't think editing was needed/worthwhile. Now, granted, if the book looks like no one edited it, I won't review it, so there is something of a selection bias there. Still, the vast majority of books I get sent to me look like third or fourth drafts, not first drafts.

But here's the thing a lot of trad published books look like third or fourth drafts, too. Maybe they were OCR errors, but the Sookie Sackhouse novels I read on my kindle looked less professional than a third of the Indie stuff I've read. And don't get me started about Harry Potter or The Subtle Knife, both of which sorely needed developmental editing.

What I've noticed in my reading is that Indie work is usually less pretty. Yes, Indie work is more likely to have commas in the wrong places. But I've also noticed that an Indie will have a fixed version up in less than a day if you mention the errors to them. Trads don't do that. Likewise, especially in the Twilight era, complaining about story arc, character development, and the like between Indies and Trads and coming up on the side of Trads somehow being superior requires the person making that argument to overlook a lot of Indie work, or a lot of Trad work.

As to the fix, I'm hoping to offer a bundled solution, story edit (developmental edit), copy edit, and proof read, along with e formating, print book formatting, and cover art. Then put the book up on Amazon, Smashwords, and B&N. Now, I'd be doing this on a part time basis, one or two manuscripts at a time, and making very little money on a per hour basis. (Still more than I'm making as a SAHM. I'm thinking .03 a word, plus more depending on what sort of cover. Or .05 a word, plus cover, but with .01 + cover down, and the rest due as 50% of money earned from the book until it's paid off.) My prospective copy editor is currently making $9 an hour to do something she doesn't like. At .01 a word she may be making less per hour, but at least it's work she likes and she can do with a baby at home. My prospective proofreader is in the same boat.

Hopefully we (and many like us) are the solution for the Indie writer. We're a cottage industry of micro businesses. And it's possible we won't do as good of a job as the more expensive guys. But we will do a better job than my editor did, and we'll certainly produce a better project than one with no editing at all.

[Maggie Leung]

Originally Posted by Keryl Raist

My prospective copy editor is currently making $9 an hour to do something she doesn't like. At .01 a word she may be making less per hour, but at least it's work she likes and she can do with a baby at home. My prospective proofreader is in the same boat.

There are Internet content farms that pay copy editors better than this, with the copy editor working at home. Your prospective copy editor probably doesn't know that, or she wouldn't work for so little. Either that or she's not good enough to land the work. If you're lucky, she's the former.

[Keryl Raist]

Originally Posted by Maggie Leung

There are Internet content farms that pay copy editors better than this, with the copy editor working at home. Your prospective copy editor probably doesn't know that, or she wouldn't work for so little. Either that or she's not good enough to land the work. If you're lucky, she's the former.

For her it's a time issue. Right now she's pregnant and working flat out at the job she has (60 hrs/wk) because the job has health insurance.

In a month she's getting married and will be on hubby's insurance, and said job will go the way of the dodo.

Once said job is gone her calendar will be opening up for new projects. And, if you feel like pming me the names of the places you're thinking of, I'll happily send them to her.

Fiction editing is what she wants to do, and part of starting low is building up a portfolio of work. Once you can point to well written, successful books with your name on them, it's easier to charge more.