Piracy Experiment

[GA Russell]

There are a pragmatic argument and a moral argument.

Some here are concerned with the pragmatic argument. Paying the authors encourages them to continue to write.

I am much more inclined to the moral argument. The author deserves to be paid for his work.

I suspect that most here allow their thinking to be influenced by copyright law.

For example, I believe that in the US, the patent for medicines runs out in only seven years. (That may be wrong, but you get the idea.) Suppose that the copyright term were similar, and that copyright expired after seven years.

Would you feel guilty for downloading a pirated work after the copyright term had expired? If not, it looks to me like one is allowing the government to determine one's morality. I'm not comfortable with that.

[bucsie]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

True, but it also disproves the theory that people who download unauthorised content will not pay for that content. As well as donations to sites like that, people also pay for premium usenet access, faster (and ulimited) download slots from Rapidshare, and are also almost certainly paying a premium for faster than they need internet access.

If ebooks were priced as the disposable files that they are, or if publishers had a subscription service where you could download as many as you want, how much of that money that is currently going to pirate sites would end up in the hands of writers instead?

I agree to this. I would pay a small monthly fee on such a site. I usually read a book then discard it, so it would be like subscribing to a library.

Originally Posted by pdurrant

It would still be better to take that $50 and buy one ebook from each of your five favourite authors, than to give it to people who have not contributed to the books at all.

As for ebook costs. The average amount I paid for the ebooks I read (that weren't free) in 2010 was $3.66: https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...47&postcount=3

The average amount so far in 2011 is $4.01: https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...2&postcount=52

So I reckon you might have been able to find more than five ebooks to spend the $50 on.

Indeed, at Baen books, $50 would get you about 20 ebooks.

You should no more give money to ebook pirates than you should respond to the adverts in spam.

as to the number of books one could get for $50 that obviously depends on the author and the book. I tried to get the amazon prices for the example I used above, but they won't even sell the Lee Child ebooks here, so I can't get a listing. So even if I wanted to buy them I would have to do another illegality and impersonate an American citizen. I assume they average at about $10/book though.

As to giving money to pirates - actually the money goes to the site that hosts the means to get to the downloads - not to the pirates themselves. They only get virtual thank yous or other forms of recognition, hardly anything they can put on their tables. If one feels grateful for such a site for being able to get books that otherwise it would be impossible to obtain... in my twisted mind it's the same with me being happy with calibre and donating them the same amount.

ETA: I do see the difference that with calibre the author is getting the reward. The similarity is that I am giving the ones that made me happy what I feel the stuff is worth and the amount I can afford.

[Freeshadow]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

I didn't get the pback for free or at a discounted price because I bought the hback so I shouldn't get the ebook for free because I bought the hbakc or pback.

you misunderstand - its not like an "free upgrade idea"
would it be legal for where you live to scan, or type-copy your pbook for own use? if yes than where is the problem in owning a hand-crafted copy somone else made? as long as you own a pbook with the same text?

you of course can't sell your paper copy then - its kind of legal proof your handmadecopy falls under fair use but you may have a self made on your readers and your pbooks stuffed away somewhere.

@bucsie:
read and discard: not everyone IS a throwaway fastfood reader
for some it is the primary quality atribute actually weather a book is worth to be kept and re-read
(I'm extreme @ that: everything not worth re-reading wasn't worth to be read once - I file them under got the wrong book.)

there are actually people out there who want their own books for such ones this "flat-thinking" is equal to being ripped off

have you never read a good book your dad or grandma owned? or older?
go and figure a flat-rate prize for 60 y continous possession. *shrug*

[bucsie]

the best books I read were my granddad's but they are out of print and I haven't seen them in bookstores.
There are very few books that I'd re-read, those are the ones that have to make you think hard. Short of self-help books, I can't think of a title I read in the last years that made me ponder and wish to revisit the story. ( except for the sookie books but those are my guilty pleasure). So I guess I am a fast-food reader. *shrug*.
This month's book-club book - the hitchhiker's guide. It was nice, but I won't re-read. Like a sitcom, it was enjoyable, provided a good amount of escapism, but I won't be losing my night's sleep over "42".

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Xanthe

Personally-speaking, on my computer I'm currently running real-time:
Norton Internet Security
SuperAntiSpyware Pro
Mamutu
Zemana AntiLogger
Ad Muncher
Spyware Blaster
WinPatrol Pro

with Spybot Search & Destroy and Malwarebyte's AntiMalware as on-demand scanner. I've hardened my browsers as much as is reasonable and still allow usable functioning of them. I do this not because I go on the Dark Net, but just for my everyday protection. And most important of all, I pay attention to what I am doing and where I am going on the Net.

You are going through far more trouble than I do.

I use Symantec Corporate for A/V. (I won't touch the Norton consumer version - too many "Does not play well with others" issues.) It never finds anything. (The only things it has found recently have been false positives in some ancient MS-DOS apps I've had sine the 80's.)

I use the last freeware version of the old Sygate Personal Firewall, with Windows Firewall also enabled since it doesn't conflict, and there's a hardware firewall in my router.

While I have things like MalwareBytes anti-malware installed, I do not run resident anti-spyware/malware/intrusions detection/etc. applications. I do occasional on demand scans using MalwareBytes, Spybot Search and Destroy and the like. The worst they find are tracking cookies, which are at worst a nuisance.

I do sometimes poke around on the seamier parts of the net. And if I do, it's from behind an anonymous proxy. I have never had a problem from doing so.

I treat viruses, spyware, malware, Trojans and the like as diseases. Diseases all have vectors they use to invade the host body. Ward the vectors and many problems go away. A lot of security programs assume you will be compromised and provide tools to deal with it. I find it easier to just not get compromised in the first place.

What do I do?

I keep Windows fully patched with auto-update enabled.

I don't use IE as my browser. Most exploits target holes in IE to get on the machine. If IE isn't in use, they bounce. I prefer Firefox, but Google Chrome, Opera, and Safari are safe choices too.

I use the NoScript add-on for Firefox, which blocks all scripting activity if the site isn't in a whitelist. By default, it disables JavaScript, but can block Java, Flash, and Silverlight too.

I also run the Stylish extension, which allows me to run arbitrary CSS ("UserScripts") based on the page I'm viewing. Stylish enables Ad Blocking Filterset P. Filterset P is a lengthy CSS stylesheet that defines a number of ad server sites and simply doesn't render content fetched from them. It doesn't block them from being downloaded like AdBlock Plus, but I don't care. I'm not fanatical about blocking ads. I just want to clean up ad heavy sites and make them readable. It works a treat for that.

I use GMail as my primary mail account, and it polls the others. Email attachments are favorite vectors for infections. Attachments all stay on Google's servers, and only get downloaded and opened if I know what they are and who they are from. (And GMail's spam and phish detection is very good indeed. Suspect attachments are unlikely to ever appear in my Inbox.

I download only from known good sites that scan on their end.

I avoid warez and crack sites, as pirated software is another favorite vector for exploits. Likewise, I avoid porn sites, as they tend to be "Most likely to be compromised and try to send you something nasty", like the "special codec" you need to view the videos...

I've been following a variant of the above polices for as long as I've been on line. I've never been infected by something from the Internet. About the only exploit that might have bitten me was the infamous Sony rootkit, save that I seldom buy CDs.
______
Dennis

[Xanthe]

Originally Posted by kacir

Holy $DEITY!
those programs must eat up 95% of your CPU cycles and slow down any disk activity tenfold.

Have you considered running on Linux? At least for browsing? At least from a virtual machine?
Give Mint Linux a try. Works nicely out of the box and if something screws it anyway, you simply reinstall, leaving your Windows partition untouched.
There *is* some learning curve, but you seem to be experienced veteran ...

No, they hardly impact my CPU cycles. Task Manager usually shows my processor being idle 94-97% of the time. I chose them because a) they all have a small footprint on the computer, b) they do their jobs very well, and c) they all play nice with one another and most importantly, with my computer.

I'm running Vista and its own processes are the things that tend to hog the CPU. Windows Error Reporting, for example, hogs about 60% for an extended period of time.

I know general information about Linux, but have never seriously considered using it. I bookmarked that information about Mint, though - thanks for mentioning it. I had never heard of that version before. One of these days maybe I'll look into Linux more.

By DMcCunney

You are going through far more trouble than I do.

I use Symantec Corporate for A/V. (I won't touch the Norton consumer version - too many "Does not play well with others" issues.) It never finds anything. (The only things it has found recently have been falso positives in some ancient MS-DOS apps I've had sine the 80's.)

Actually, it's not much trouble at all. The programs are light and they all deal with specific aspects of security that I'm concerned with, given my computer usage. They merely back up common sense behavior on my part and cover any moments of inattention. I've always preferred the layered approach to security on Windows; it has served me well over the years.

I dumped Norton back around 2002, IIRC, because of the problems it was causing. I came back in 2009 when they completely revamped the software and I haven't had any problems with it. It turns up the nasties it should, and has been running well with my other software. It has an extremely low false positive rate.

I use a router, too. I keep Windows fully patched but I have WU notify me, not auto-update. I usually wait a few days after Patch Tuesday and check a couple of forums to see if the updates broke anything before I apply them.

[Freeshadow]

@Xanthe
if in doubt post a short sumup of your hardware, (graphics, network, sound, printer scanner, etc) every longer term user will know if there are troublesome candidates among and help you piloting trough the start - the next time you'll know where to look up what by yourself.

[Xanthe]

Thanks for mentioning that, Freeshadow, but any problems I have with this computer tend to be just known Vista quirks that affect some Vista machines but not others, and for which there is no known solution or work arounds - other than installing another OS or getting a Mac.

It is my lot in life, I think, to buy a new computer just when Microsoft issues one of its poorer operating systems; my previous computer ran WinME.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Xanthe

No, they hardly impact my CPU cycles. Task Manager usually shows my processor being idle 94-97% of the time. I chose them because a) they all have a small footprint on the computer, b) they do their jobs very well, and c) they all play nice with one another and most importantly, with my computer.

Whatever makes you comfortable. I looked at all that a while back and decided I didn't need it. Since nothing has bitten me in more years than I can count offhand, I have to assume I was right.

I know general information about Linux, but have never seriously considered using it. I bookmarked that information about Mint, though - thanks for mentioning it. I had never heard of that version before. One of these days maybe I'll look into Linux more.

I triple boot on the desktop: Win2K Pro SP4, WinXP Pro SP3, and Ubuntu Linux. The old notebook I use as a test bed quad boots: Win2K Pro, Ubuntu Linux, Puppy Linux, and FreeDOS.

I'd look at Ubuntu Linux. It does the best job I've seen in a Linux distro of figuring out what hardware you have, setting itself up, and Just Working. Ubuntu tries to be like Windows in this respect, and succeeds fairly well. Other distros tend to require more knowledge about the system, and ask questions during installation many new users won't know the answers to.

You can install it alongside Windows using WUBI. In that configuration, it actually lives in the Windows file system. Windows sees it as a big file. Booted into it, Linux sees that big file as a Linux file system. You can use that approach to play with it. Later, if desired, you can do a proper install, repartitioning a hard drive to provide a dedicated Linux slice. If you really get ambitious, you can install something like VMWare or VirtualBox, and run Windows and Linux side by side in virtual machines.

Actually, it's not much trouble at all. The programs are light and they all deal with specific aspects of security that I'm concerned with, given my computer usage. They merely back up common sense behavior on my part and cover any moments of inattention. I've always preferred the layered approach to security on Windows; it has served me well over the years.

I like a layered approach, too. The question is how many layers you need.

I could drop a few I have now and not lose much sleep. For instance, with a hardware firewall in the router, I could drop the software firewalls on the desktop. They are there because I was using them before I got a router and set up a home network, and are more for outgoing control than blocking incoming traffic. (I did spend some time locking down the filesystem. If anyone gets past the WPA2 encryption and into my router [unlikely], they can only get to public directories.)

For that matter, I could drop A/V, save possible on demand scanning of downloads. The last time my A/V actually caught anything real, it came from binary newsgroups, which was no surprise. My ISP subsequently dropped news server access, and I didn't make enough use of them to justify a payware news server subscription. Several free news servers provide access to the text only groups I read.

As mentioned, it's easier to keep the bad stuff out of the machine to begin with than deal with it once it's gotten in.

I dumped Norton back around 2002, IIRC, because of the problems it was causing. I came back in 2009 when they completely revamped the software and I haven't had any problems with it. It turns up the nasties it should, and has been running well with my other software. It has an extremely low false positive rate.

What nasties has it turned up? I never see anything real.

Symantec Corporate has a very low false positive rate, too. It's only been in the past few months that I've had any at all, though I was amused that they were ancient MS-DOS programs. It required exempting the directory where all of that lives from Symantec's scan, and dropping in fresh copes from the distribution archives, but it was a minor irritation.

I use a router, too. I keep Windows fully patched but I have WU notify me, not auto-update. I usually wait a few days after Patch Tuesday and check a couple of forums to see if the updates broke anything before I apply them.

I use auto-update, but have it set to let me choose when to install. I've never had an update break anything.
______
Dennis

[ruel]

Originally Posted by unboggling

4. I'd be interested in learning what one of those alleged "good, membership-only" book-piracy sites looks like, how much it costs, what the membership/joining process is, the quality of the selection and formats available. Until that experiment, if ever, I will avoid piracy sites and pirated copies.

To my knowledge, no torrent websites charge users. They just don't have open registration to anybody. Usually there is an interview process on IRC, invitations from members, or occasional open registration.

The only paid piracy system is usenet (which is a bulletin board system in which files happen to be able to be exchanged). It is not specifically made for piracy and you pay a usenet provider (similar to how you would pay an ISP). The usenet provider has nothing to do with the act of piracy (some people do use usenet just as a message board). Other than that, some people buy accounts on direct download sites to speed up downloads, but that is entirely optional.

Also, I'm pretty sure there are no fiction ebook torrent websites. There just isn't enough demand I guess. There are, however, a few torrent websites that only deal with elearning ebooks.

Generally, the higher quality pirated ebooks can be found on general private torrent websites which contain a variety of different files (movies, music, comics, ebooks, tv shows, video games, etc.). However, the vast majority of materiel is scanned from printed books and is of low quality (although I did see one file with 2500 retail ebooks). The only other means that people use to get pirated ebooks is IRC or warez forums (forums with direct download links).

As for formats, most often the ebooks are in pdf, epub, mobi, or lit. Oftentimes, they have just been converted with Calibre, though.

Overall, it's far easier to just buy the book from a legitimate retailer, but if you are already tech savvy you may be able to find a fairly limited selection of pirated ebooks.

[silasgreenback]

Originally Posted by ruel

The only other means that people use to get pirated ebooks is IRC...

I was wondering when someone would get around to mentioning that.

[lene1949]

Originally Posted by ruel

To my knowledge, no torrent websites charge users. They just don't have open registration to anybody. Usually there is an interview process on IRC, invitations from members, or occasional open registration.

The only paid piracy system is usenet (which is a bulletin board system in which files happen to be able to be exchanged). It is not specifically made for piracy and you pay a usenet provider (similar to how you would pay an ISP). The usenet provider has nothing to do with the act of piracy (some people do use usenet just as a message board). Other than that, some people buy accounts on direct download sites to speed up downloads, but that is entirely optional.

Also, I'm pretty sure there are no fiction ebook torrent websites. There just isn't enough demand I guess. There are, however, a few torrent websites that only deal with elearning ebooks.

Generally, the higher quality pirated ebooks can be found on general private torrent websites which contain a variety of different files (movies, music, comics, ebooks, tv shows, video games, etc.). However, the vast majority of materiel is scanned from printed books and is of low quality (although I did see one file with 2500 retail ebooks). The only other means that people use to get pirated ebooks is IRC or warez forums (forums with direct download links).

As for formats, most often the ebooks are in pdf, epub, mobi, or lit. Oftentimes, they have just been converted with Calibre, though.

Overall, it's far easier to just buy the book from a legitimate retailer, but if you are already tech savvy you may be able to find a fairly limited selection of pirated ebooks.

I actually did pay a site for a lifetime membership... I was careful to write down the password, but that's all I know... I didn't bookmark the site, and I must have deleted the email... If I ever come across a site, which charges for membership, I'll try this password, I saved... Never got to download any books from there, though...

I normally buy my books from Amazon... I love the immediateness of the transactions...

[kacir]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

I'd look at Ubuntu Linux. It does the best job I've seen in a Linux distro of figuring out what hardware you have, setting itself up, and Just Working.

Mint Linux builds on top of Ubuntu. They just improve some things that I do not like in Ubuntu. Just give the live CD a spin to have a look ...

[Xanthe]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

I'd look at Ubuntu Linux. It does the best job I've seen in a Linux distro of figuring out what hardware you have, setting itself up, and Just Working....You can install it alongside Windows using WUBI. In that configuration, it actually lives in the Windows file system. Windows sees it as a big file. Booted into it, Linux sees that big file as a Linux file system.

Interesting. Sometime in the next few months I'm going to do a wipe of my laptop, so maybe I'll try out Linux then.

I like a layered approach, too. The question is how many layers you need.

I could drop a few I have now and not lose much sleep. For instance, with a hardware firewall in the router, I could drop the software firewalls on the desktop...are more for outgoing control than blocking incoming traffic...For that matter, I could drop A/V, save possible on demand scanning of downloads.

What nasties has it turned up? I never see anything real.

The layers that I have are the ones that are useful to me. As you said, with the router a software firewall isn't really necessary but I too keep mine to control outbound access by my programs. I have an aversion to programs calling home unnecessarily; I tend not to allow auto-updating of programs. I like to know when changes are being made to my programs.

I like WinPatrol because of the alerts it provides to changes to my start-up list and to various bits and pieces programs try to quietly add to IE and my computer. It also is a good information source for what's going on at the moment. Spyware Blaster is just set-and-forget passive protection, so it's not using resources. Mamutu is a behavior blocker/zeo-day monitor; it tends to provide alerts when programs have changed or when installations are doing suspect things. Zemana is behavior-based too, so it picks up on things that AV's tend not to. So those two programs are only activated when an anomaly occurs. There's actually not that much redundancy; it's more a matter of making sure specific security aspects that I'm concerned with are covered well.

I tend to try out a lot of downloads from various sites and sometimes the software is dodgey. So NIS does trigger alerts in that instance and they seem to be precise. Some AVs I've used in the past tend to automatically label everything a generic trojan or virus from those sites, when they clearly are not (and when they also test clean on sites like Jotti's).

I use auto-update, but have it set to let me choose when to install. I've never had an update break anything.

Well, that's the way mine is set up, because I have had updates screw up my computer. Vista is an odd bird. That's when I've given thanks for System Restore.

[Xanthe]

Originally Posted by unboggling

4. I'd be interested in learning what one of those alleged "good, membership-only" book-piracy sites looks like, how much it costs, what the membership/joining process is, the quality of the selection and formats available. Until that experiment, if ever, I will avoid piracy sites and pirated copies.

If we told you, we'd have to kill you. (J/K )

They look like any other forum, and tend to ask for donations for operating costs just like any other forum that is not ad-based. Registration is usually by direct invitation only. Quality is usually excellent because a lot of times the members are putting up their own book purchases. They are akin to private libraries.