Digital Vs. Physical Goods

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by AMacD

Steve, if you had stayed out of this very long thread you would be several chapters farther into your latest book, which I am anxiously awaiting.

Gawd, ain't it the truth!

For the record, I am working on it, but this thread isn't holding me up. Still, I have to participate: As a member of this forum, I not only feel I have something worthwhile to contribute, but I want to be a part of the effort to make the ebook industry viable and profitable for both sides. and as this thread (and many others) indicate, ther are still issues that need to be discussed and resolved, for that to happen.

[Penforhire]

Most of you haven't had experience with a modern fingerprint scanner. Yes, I imagine some people with palsy or other physical impediments wouldn't be able to use them. But mine required a reswipe of my finger only twice in over a year now! There is always a password work-around. Besides, how abut a retinal image scanner instead. That probably allows more people, excluding the blind.

I think Steve is correct. History proves your objections are not going to stop this train. I swore many years ago I'd never use an ATM card for normal retail transactions like groceries. C'mon, why not carry enough cash? Well, I'm a convert and my ATM card gets a work-out, just like the vast majority of people I know.

Personally I'd much prefer my DRM keys be based on myself than my devices. Seems like it'd make things more portable. Biometric hardware continues to get cheaper, smaller, and more reliable so it could be built into more things. My fingerprint reader happened to fail recently, under warranty, and HP sent a tech to replace it at my desk (I was using password workarounds during the failure). Their construction required the whole top-plate of the laptop to be replaced but the swipe-reader's PCB itself was amazingly small, maybe 2" x 1", and thin.

We'll see. Maybe our Babylonian situation will continue longer than I think it will. Just seems unnecessarily wasteful and frustrating.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Penforhire

Most of you haven't had experience with a modern fingerprint scanner. Yes, I imagine some people with palsy or other physical impediments wouldn't be able to use them. But mine required a reswipe of my finger only twice in over a year now! There is always a password work-around. Besides, how abut a retinal image scanner instead. That probably allows more people, excluding the blind.

I suspect that fingerprint-swiping could be built right into touch-enabled device screens, right down to smartphone screens. Device cameras, becoming ubiquitous in small devices, would also suffice for retina scans.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Penforhire

Most of you haven't had experience with a modern fingerprint scanner. Yes, I imagine some people with palsy or other physical impediments wouldn't be able to use them. But mine required a reswipe of my finger only twice in over a year now!

Where's the fingerprint scanner kept & used? I've seen them on laptops, which means that they're protected by the screen most of the time, and they're mostly used on tables, not on crowded trains or waved around at the beach or held with one hand while the other holds a sandwich.

There is always a password work-around.

Which is what the B&N system is now... what's the password? Do you choose it at download time, or is it based on your credit card? And of course, this method means every device needs a password input system as well as the fingerprint scanner.

My PRS-505 has neither, so of course I'd have to get books from other sources, or read cracked books.

Besides, how abut a retinal image scanner instead. That probably allows more people, excluding the blind.

And it'd probably only add $75 to the price of the reader!

I think Steve is correct. History proves your objections are not going to stop this train. I swore many years ago I'd never use an ATM card for normal retail transactions like groceries.

This is not a case of claiming "we'll eventually use more tech" but "we'll eventually willingly lock ourselves out of our own purchases."

Some people would; some would not. And the existence of *any* commercially-available readers that don't have the bioscan tech would mean no end, no slow-down, to the current bootleg & cracked ebook exchanges.

Personally I'd much prefer my DRM keys be based on myself than my devices.

I prefer no DRM. I don't have DRM on my physical books; when I buy them, I don't make any statements about how many people can read them.

[Anke Wehner]

I really don't want to live in the dystopian world you suggest where buying an ebook means you are so suspect of criminal activity that you need to be fingerprinted every time you want to access it.

It is thoroughly vile, and I'd rather stop reading books (or only read indie books published without that crap) than buy into it.

What else? Government-controlled trojans on each PC monitoring what you do with it, in case something of it isn't legal? Security cameras in each and every room of everyone's private homes because they could do something illegal?

[Piper_]

I won't buy an ebook that I can't share with the same people I've always shared pbooks with.

Since my husband, sister, children don't have my eyes or fingers, I'm thinkin' biometrics are non-starters. (Even if all the hurdles noted by others here were to be overcome.)

[GreenMonkey]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

I prefer no DRM. I don't have DRM on my physical books; when I buy them, I don't make any statements about how many people can read them.

Look, fingerprint scanners aren't any more foolproof than any other form of protection.

All you need to do is crack the fingerprint reader firmware, tell it to send back a response of "1" for a fingerprint match, and you're good to go. Or mod the software to not need the fingerprint check to authorize.

I mean, Xbox 360s have had a digital fingerprint check of sorts on discs to see if they are legitimate. People just flash optical drives with modified software so that the drive always reports back "OK, good disc" no matter what. Thus, xbox 360 software infringement abounds for the people that want to do it.

There's a reason every console is always, always cracked for piracy. That dates back to the NES and SNES when people were running games off of floppy disks.

DRM DOESN'T WORK. Hardware or software baced protection is ALWAYS defeated. Period. Game consoles are always cracked, hardware or software. iPhones and iPods are always jailbroken. Linux-based devices are rooted. DVD players are modded to region-free. It happens. A fingerprint scanner isn't a magic bullet. It is no different to circumvent than any other check.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by GreenMonkey

DRM DOESN'T WORK. [...] A fingerprint scanner isn't a magic bullet. It is no different to circumvent than any other check.

And like all other DRM, it would only inconvenience your actual paying customers.

DRM: A way to spend money and annoy your customers without hindering pirates or piracy. A great idea.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

A lot of nitpicking and outright over-reaction to what's really a simple and effective solution to a problem.

It's no more dystopian or Orwellian than:

• The closed-circuit monitoring cameras in the stores you shop in every day
• The key fob to your car or office that records each use
• The smartphone that captures GPS data when you take a snapshot
• Your credit card
• Your checks
• Your grocery store member card
• Your account with your electric company
• Your account with your cable operator
• Your account with your ISP
• Your driver's license number
• The VIN on your car

It's more secure than all of those things; and no more intrusive (or do you really obsess about the ways in which Big Brother tracks you through all of the things above? Because if you do... well, it's pretty much too late to worry about one more thing, isn't it? Comply... Resistance is Futile).

(And now we'll wait for the comments from all the people who have none of those things... )

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

a simple and effective solution to a problem.

I have to disagree. It's neither simple nor effective.

[queentess]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

And like all other DRM, it would only inconvenience your actual paying customers.

DRM: A way to spend money and annoy your customers without hindering pirates or piracy. A great idea.

Spot on. DRM is just a challenge, a game that must be beaten. And it does a great job of hindering paying customers and making their experience hell.

[Anke Wehner]

The closed-circuit monitoring cameras in the stores you shop in every day
Which are not in my home, and do not require me to go out of my way to identify myself.

The key fob to your car or office that records each use
Which I do not have, which does not require fingerprints, and you can still chose to use a plain key, can't you?

The smartphone that captures GPS data when you take a snapshot
Which I do not own. Isn't it meant as a convenience for the person taking the photo, as opposed to a means of tracking them? Can't people switch that off? I know they can remove geotagging with software that can edit metadata, and that really is not illegal or objectionable in any way.

Your credit card
I have one for online purchases I can't pay any other way (unlike most people I know, who don't have a credit card at all). Anyone who pays with plastic when it's an option, that's their lookout.

Your checks
Never wrote a check. (They are outdated over here.)

Your grocery store member card
Never got one.

Your account with your electric company
They do not require biometric data every time I switch the light on.

Your account with your cable operator
We've got a satellite dish, but even when we had cable, they did not require biometric data every time I switch the TV on. Or have a camera in our sitting room we make sure we don't invite so many people we should pay additional fees for "public viewing".

Your account with your ISP
They do not require biometric data every time I log in.

Your driver's license number
What does that have to do with anything? I guess I have seen the occasional website that offers it as a suggestion for the "secret question" when you forget your password, but that's it.

The VIN on your car
When is that even relevant? When is it read? What does this have to do with fingerprints?

It's more secure than all of those things; and no more intrusive

Having biometric data checked is bloody intrusive.
Fingerprinting is something done to criminals or suspects. Being automatically turned into a suspect because I bought a book is vile.

[queentess]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

It's more secure than all of those things; and no more intrusive (or do you really obsess about the ways in which Big Brother tracks you through all of the things above? Because if you do... well, it's pretty much too late to worry about one more thing, isn't it? Comply... Resistance is Futile).

Reminds me of this (decent movie, too)

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Okay, since this thread is supposed to be about physical vs digital goods, I am officially going to pass on any further discussion about biometrics, as it has obviously co-opted this thread. I urge the rest of you to do so as well, and see if this thread can get back on topic.

Maybe we will start a new thread dedicated to the pros and cons of biometrics somewhere else, like the lounge (though I'm not sure we'll get an even discussion about it).

[Fayth]

Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan

Okay, since this thread is supposed to be about physical vs digital goods, I am officially going to pass on any further discussion about biometrics, as it has obviously co-opted this thread. I urge the rest of you to do so as well, and see if this thread can get back on topic.

Maybe we will start a new thread dedicated to the pros and cons of biometrics somewhere else, like the lounge (though I'm not sure we'll get an even discussion about it).

Well, in terms of physical vs digital goods, how do you ever see a method of protecting digital goods that won't be broken? It seems to me that you are under the impression your fingerprint idea would go unhacked and no-one would work around it. It most definitely would be worked around. And thats the problem. A company can hire dozens of brilliant programmers and engineers to make an effective DRM system, only to find out it isn't effective, because thousands of hackers out there will break it for the mere challenge of breaking something new. And then we are back to where we are now, regardless of whether its finger scanner, eye scanner, or whatever, it will get hacked, the pirating world will continue to go on as it does now.