Amazon Kindle e-book downloads outsell paperbacks

[Catlady]

fjtorres, this explanation is the first one I've seen that makes sense to me.

But what it really comes down to is that Amazon does want one size to fit all--it wants a monopoly. Amazon's tactics seem to be designed to defeat epub, not to let it coexist. It's a format war, with Amazon on one side and everyone else on the other side. The ease of format shifting may mean there's a stalemate for a long time.

I'm just wondering--with Agency books, so price is eliminated as a factor, do people with devices that can have both Kindle and Nook/Kobo/etc. apps buy epubs or Amazon books? That would be an interesting survey.

[SleepyBob]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

"The consumer point of view?"
Which consumer?
Are you proposing that all consumers are interchangeable? Have the same needs, same tastes, same biases, same budgets?

Of course not. Are you proposing that the lack of a feature that only makes a product more useful is somehow a benefit? Even if only some consumers will benefit from it doesn't make its absence a feature.

Is a Porsche Cayenne failing because it doesn't offer the fuel economy of a Honda Fit or the manure-hauling capacity of a Dodge Ram? Is a Tesla failing because it offers a single speed transmission instead of five, six, or eight gears?

Absolutely. The low MPG of trucks is a failing. The small capacity of a Fit or Fortwo is a failing. The high cost of Rolls Royce is a failing. It is then up to the individual consumer to decide which trade-offs they are willing to live with.

The Kindle product has shortcomings. All products have shortcomings. I'm not arguing that people are stupid to pick a Kindle with its failings, rather than a Nook with its failings. I'm not arguing that those shortcomings aren't to Amazon's financial advantage. But when I pick a product, I choose it based on its features, shortcomings, price, and their impact on me. I don't benefit from a feature of "makes the rest of Amazon even more profitable".

If Amazon considers lack of library lending a feature, maybe they should put that on their boxes. Hmm - they don't.

[Ankh]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I must disagree. Amazon's goal is to sell E-BOOKS, not Kindles. The Kindles are just a way to get people to buy e-books, but Amazon don't care if you read their e-books on a Kindle, a PC, a Mac, an iPad, an Android phone or tablet, a Blackberry, or whatever. Letting the Kindle read ePub books would entirely defeat the purpose of the exercise, which is to bring business to Amazon's e-book store.

It is "whatever" part that is a problem. You certainly can not read Amazon ebooks on any other eInk reader, unless the device is exclusively tied into the Amazon DRM scheme.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Ankh

It is "whatever" part that is a problem. You certainly can not read Amazon ebooks on any other eInk reader, unless the device is exclusively tied into the Amazon DRM scheme.

Nor can you read Adobe ADEPT books on readers that don't pay Adobe royalties. Or B&N ePubs on anything but Nooks or ireader books an anything not from Apple.
Playstation3 games don't play on Xboxes not do Nintendo games.
BluRay movies don't play on DVDs or PMPs.
What's the difference?

Why is Kindle such a problem for some people?
They're not doing anything that dozens of companies from Sony to Nokia do all the time.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Catlady

Amazon's tactics seem to be designed to defeat epub, not to let it coexist.

It's a format war, with Amazon on one side and everyone else on the other side. The ease of format shifting may mean there's a stalemate for a long time.

I'm just wondering--with Agency books, so price is eliminated as a factor, do people with devices that can have both Kindle and Nook/Kobo/etc. apps buy epubs or Amazon books? That would be an interesting survey.

1- Everybody else? I'm thinking the Apple and B&N bookstores aren't on Adobe's side. Neither are the asian bookstores using XMDF. Or the CIS bookstores using FB2. Or the (way smarter) publishers that do DRM-free ebooks. Adobe DRM is hardly the universally-accepted format its supporters make it out to be nor is it survival up to Amazon. (Nor are we really talking about a format war between azw and ePub; it is really a duel between multiple DRM schemes, each as proprietary and obnoxious as the rest.) Whether ADEPT DRM "wins" the DRM "war" isn't up to Amazon; it is up to consumers who vote with their wallets. Ideally, both camps would lose and we'd get DRM-free ebooks. At that point ePub vs azw becomes meaningless.

2- You bring up a good point about the multifunction platforms; the PC, iPxxx, and Android devices. It might be interesting to see what a proper scientific poll reveals about the percentage of those users that get their ebooks from Amazon vs the Apple, B&N, Kobo, and (soon) Sony stores. Or Baen, Feedbooks, etc. It is going to have to come from a third party source cause none of the bookstores (other than Amazon) are going to have much to brag about, I suspect. After all, if they had something positive to report, they would've said it when Amazon started crowing that 25% of their ebook sales come from people who *don't* own Kindles.

The way I see it, with ebooks now fully mainstream consumer products, the same "read between the lines" rules that apply to other products are now in effect: those with good things to report plaster it all over the media, those without hunker down and keep quiet, hoping nobody notices.

By those guidelines we know the recent holiday season was good to Amazon, B&N, and Kobo, awful for Borders, and so-so for Sony, who ran out of product but aren't bragging about it.

[wallcraft]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

4- introduce and license a new (fourth!) ePub DRM scheme under their control and face the same regulatory threats as eating the costs of ADEPT

I agree that Amazon is unlikely to ever offer DRM controlled by a 3rd party. There are a few signs that Amazon might add their own DRM to ePubs: a) the Kindle Previewer now reads ePub, and b) Amazon adds the original source (often ePub) to its AZW files. So Amazon might add either DRM-free ePub or ePub in an AZW wrapper (or both) to Kindle devices and apps. Their primary reason to do so would be to capture books that are too complicated for MOBI. A secondary reason is that many of the ebooks they get from major publishers are ePubs (so why bother to convert to MOBI if you don't have to).

[fjtorres]

Defective product definition:
http://www.businessdictionary.com/de...e-product.html

Consumable, commercially produced and distributed good that is (1) unfit for its intended use, (2) dangerous or harmful for normal use, (3) does not carry adequate instructions for its use, or (4) is inherently dangerous due to defective design, assembly, or manufacture. See also defect.

So:
1 - does Amazon advertise the Kindle as intended to access Library ebooks? Does it fail to access the Amazon ebookstore as advertise? Does it fail to open ebooks and documents in the documented formats?

2- does reading on a Kindle leave anybody blind or do Kindle batteries explode or otherwise cause harm to its buyers?

3- do Kindles come with inadequate instruction on how to turn them on, download ebooks, and read them?

4- or do Kindles fall apart or stop performing during normal usage?

Given the lack of class-action lawsuits coming from eastern Texas, I suspect the answer is: NO.
No ambulance-chasing shyster has yet found reason to go after Amazon over the Kindles.

It is an established legal principle (at a minimum) that producers have the right to design their products as they see fit as long as they don't endanger the user.
Claiming a product is defective because it fails to offer features its vendor never claimed to offer is not exactly rational, people. You might as well decry AIRPLANE as a bad movie because it doesn't move you to tears like TITANIC.

I'm outta here!

[jocampo]

Originally Posted by Ankh

It is "whatever" part that is a problem. You certainly can not read Amazon ebooks on any other eInk reader, unless the device is exclusively tied into the Amazon DRM scheme.

So, you can with B&N , right?

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Nor can you read Adobe ADEPT books on readers that don't pay Adobe royalties. Or B&N ePubs on anything but Nooks or ireader books an anything not from Apple.

My JBL supports BN epubs. Pandigital's color reader supports BN epubs. So there are at least two examples of BN allowing its DRM scheme to be used on e-readers that are not Nooks.

[vaughnmr]

So how many devices out there support Apple's drm? Should we insist that Apple start selling Mobi format books? What about B&N, should they also? Are we asking Amazon for something that we are not asking of the other booksellers?

As for me, I'm happy with what Amazon offers me, and I can also buy elsewhere and format shift if I feel the need to.

[Catlady]

I'm not asking Amazon to do anything. I made my choice, and I'm happy with it. I think Amazon has made a wrongheaded business decision and that it's a mistake to continue to hold to that decision.

I've learned that I can do with Amazon very well. In fact, I am now less likely to buy other merchandise at Amazon as well, so there's been a ripple effect on my buying habits. It surprises me how quickly I've drifted away from Amazon in only a few months.

[CleverClothe]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Defective product definition:
http://www.businessdictionary.com/de...e-product.html


So:
1 - does Amazon advertise the Kindle as intended to access Library ebooks? Does it fail to access the Amazon ebookstore as advertise? Does it fail to open ebooks and documents in the documented formats?

2- does reading on a Kindle leave anybody blind or do Kindle batteries explode or otherwise cause harm to its buyers?

3- do Kindles come with inadequate instruction on how to turn them on, download ebooks, and read them?

4- or do Kindles fall apart or stop performing during normal usage?

Given the lack of class-action lawsuits coming from eastern Texas, I suspect the answer is: NO.
No ambulance-chasing shyster has yet found reason to go after Amazon over the Kindles.

It is an established legal principle (at a minimum) that producers have the right to design their products as they see fit as long as they don't endanger the user.
Claiming a product is defective because it fails to offer features its vendor never claimed to offer is not exactly rational, people. You might as well decry AIRPLANE as a bad movie because it doesn't move you to tears like TITANIC.

I'm outta here!

Irrelevant to the discussion. You are the first person to mention the word "defective" in this thread.

Why do some people try to run and hide behind the law when they have no ability to stand on their own in an argument? And it seems to only happen when people are defending big business.

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by Catlady

fjtorres, this explanation is the first one I've seen that makes sense to me.

But what it really comes down to is that Amazon does want one size to fit all--it wants a monopoly. Amazon's tactics seem to be designed to defeat epub, not to let it coexist. It's a format war, with Amazon on one side and everyone else on the other side. The ease of format shifting may mean there's a stalemate for a long time.

I suppose it is a format war, but I'm not sure why you are blaming Amazon for it. There's nothing the matter with epub, but it is something developed by the publishers to fight Amazon. But since they neglected to specify DRM, it has basically fractured into standard, B&N, and Apple flavors.

I'm just wondering--with Agency books, so price is eliminated as a factor, do people with devices that can have both Kindle and Nook/Kobo/etc. apps buy epubs or Amazon books? That would be an interesting survey.

There's some data - Amazon has 75-80% of the US market, but 20% of their market share (20% of 100, not 20% of 80%) comes from people without a Kindle. Which means that, in the US, the market share of people buying Kindle books without a Kindle was basically equal to all other formats. (Which also has, of course, something to do with the fact that Nook didn't come out with an app until just a couple of months ago).

[GeoffC]

Originally Posted by Ankh

It is "whatever" part that is a problem. You certainly can not read Amazon ebooks on any other eInk reader, unless the device is exclusively tied into the Amazon DRM scheme.

[jbjb]

Originally Posted by fantasyfan

Thank You! I've looked around for a forum like this for a while and this board has so many members who really know what they are talking about and are willing to share their information and advice with others.

You've come to the right place, then!

With very few exceptions, I've found the level of helpfulness, friendliness and general civility to be very high on this forum (exceptionally so, judged by the usual standards of internet forums (fora?)).

/JB