How to deal with ebook piracy

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Nick_Djinn

Me too! Nobody should be forced to make an agreement with the public library. It should be a choice for the author if their patent is still valid.

Sorry, Nick, but I really fail to see what relevance patents have to do with this discussion. Could you elaborate?

[Nick_Djinn]

I cant respond to everyone all at once.

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

A critical point to note is that there already are lots of free ebooks available, many of which are high quality (and very popular) notably public domain books. It's unclear whether this beneficial public service has made any sort of dent in piracy rates.

If its unclear, then its not an argument for or against. Also, the current system we have with e-books at the public library is unsatisfactory. Checking out books is a nuisance, and ebooks are usually CHECKED OUT!!! WTF? How can an ebook be checked out? They get one copy, and you have to return your "ebook" before somebody else can have it on their reader? Are you F-ing kidding me?.....Think maybe that is why its not a preferred alternative to piracy? Because its faster and easier to pirate, and once its downloaded you KNOW its going to be there?

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

For general interest books, the paper costs are only around 15% of the total costs. Basically, retailers and publishers have spent the last decade squeezing those costs as much as possible in order to increase their profit margins. Things like author's advances, editorial costs, marketing and other overhead make up most of the costs these days. (As a published author, go ahead and ask your publisher for a breakdown of the costs....)

%15 is 15%. The other factor is the shipping, and the number of middle men. The Publisher, the distributor, the corporate distributor, the regional corporate distributor, the store, then the overhead for the storefront and all the employees......Sure, it produces 'jobs', but are needless jobs the answer? We should be finding ways to become more competitive in production again, not become a society of paper shufflers who dig holes just to fill them up.

Anyway, tangible books are very satisfying and people will still buy them, but there is PLENTY justification for reducing the cost of ebooks, at the 15% production costs is just where the added costs BEGIN. There is no way it costs as much to upload an ebook as it costs to maintain a storefront stocked with tangible books by the metric ton. Its not just a 15% difference in overhead.

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

This also means the creation of a very expensive new entitlement, in an era where every federal and state government is slashing costs.

Its not that expensive. Also, an argument could be made that it saves space and arguably money for the same reasons stated above. Even if it did cost a bit more, it should be fairly cheap as programs go. Its military spending that is bankrupting us. Its our foreign bases all around the world. Its a global empire, like the biblical references to 'mystery babylon' who had ports in every nation on earth. Its excessive. Library and cultural enrichment makes up like 1.5% of the budget. Of course military spending is not 'discretionary' or up for debate, so they inflate those numbers, but its still small.

The library isnt going to bankrupt up, and it would likely cost less than parks or other programs to help educate children.

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

It also essentially means turning over content decisions to government agencies.

Ridiculous. We already have a public library system where you can already download e-readers. It has not expanded the scope of government or turned us into Communist China.

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

There is also a limited market for readers; in the US it's around 65 million, or 1/5 of the US population.

That seems like a lot of people to me....Of course if it was only a minority then it would cost even less. In the future electronic formats in general might become the norm for most schools, since its cheaper than producing physical textbooks...and not just %15 cheaper either.

[Anke Wehner]

Originally Posted by Nick_Djinn

Nobody should be forced to make an agreement with the public library. It should be a choice for the author if their patent is still valid.

Books are not patented. Books are copyrighted. Copyright runs out 70 years after the author's death.

Originally Posted by Nick_Djinn

Source? Do you have any real data that shows this definitively? Of course books are still popular, but can you prove that more people are paying $17 for the content ...

Uh, abookreader View Post said "willing to pay a reasonable price". The important thing is that everybody has a different idea of what a reasonable price is.

For example $6-$7 seems like a reasonable price for a non-DRM protected ebook to me, if the paperback version is available. Higher prices for early adopters, as to not have an ebook competing with the hardcover at a fraction of its price, would be fine by me, too.

Demanding that ebooks need to be "dirt cheap" is not suggesting reasonable prices, because authors and editors and typesetters and cover designers and -illustrators and marketing staff need to be paid. I'd rather have a well-writtern, edited and formatted ebook for $6 than dreck written by the yard, full of typos and random linebreaks for $0.60

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Nick_Djinn

If its unclear, then its not an argument for or against. Also, the current system we have with e-books at the public library is unsatisfactory. Checking out books is a nuisance, and ebooks are usually CHECKED OUT!!! WTF? How can an ebook be checked out? They get one copy, and you have to return your "ebook" before somebody else can have it on their reader? Are you F-ing kidding me?

The library buys the right to lend out "x" simultaneous copies of the book. That's really the only sensible way to do it. What would you suggest as an alternative?

[Lemurion]

I have a problem with anyone who currently suggests that the best strategy for ebooks is to cut the price drastically and make it up on volume. Making it up on volume only works when you have volume.

The last figures I saw put ebooks at about 5% of the US market, which implies that ebooks are read by about 1% of the population if we accept the earlier figure of 1/5 (20%) of the US population as readers. The numbers just aren't there.

I do prefer DRM-free books, but will buy some with DRM if it's reasonably convenient for me to do so and the price fits my budget. I think $5-7 is reasonable for the ebook of a paperback, and about $10-12 for the ebook of a hardcover. That's about my limit for fiction.

Also, while I do think piracy has a non-zero effect (and that it's not the same for all authors - probably benefiting some and harming others) I don't think the real issue lies with current commercially available bestsellers (or any other kind of book you care to mention) being available to read for free. For the most part, thanks to libraries, having most books available to read for free has been the norm in the civilized world for over a century.

Book sales are about immediacy and owning the book as much as reading it.

Something needs to be done, and I think Baen is making a good start, but we haven't worked out all the details yet, and I think it will be a while before everything settles down.

[leebase]

Originally Posted by Nick_Djinn

Think maybe that is why its not a preferred alternative to piracy? Because its faster and easier to pirate, and once its downloaded you KNOW its going to be there?

Yes, stealing something instead of paying for it does have it's advantages.

Lee

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by Nick_Djinn

I cant respond to everyone all at once.



If its unclear, then its not an argument for or against. Also, the current system we have with e-books at the public library is unsatisfactory. Checking out books is a nuisance, and ebooks are usually CHECKED OUT!!! WTF? How can an ebook be checked out? They get one copy, and you have to return your "ebook" before somebody else can have it on their reader? Are you F-ing kidding me?.....Think maybe that is why its not a preferred alternative to piracy? Because its faster and easier to pirate, and once its downloaded you KNOW its going to be there?

As Leebase said, yeah, stealing is always easier. If you don't have moral qualms, of course.

%15 is 15%. The other factor is the shipping, and the number of middle men. The Publisher, the distributor, the corporate distributor, the regional corporate distributor, the store, then the overhead for the storefront and all the employees......Sure, it produces 'jobs', but are needless jobs the answer? We should be finding ways to become more competitive in production again, not become a society of paper shufflers who dig holes just to fill them up.

This bit sort of epitomizes the ignorance you've shown in most of your posts. You have both invented a bunch of non-existent jobs ("corporate distributors," "regional corporate distributor"), and apparently added "corporate" to their titles to make them look useless.

The fact is, editors, proof-readers, distributors, cover designers, etc. all add value to the book and deserve to be paid for their work.

But if you don't want to pay them, just look for free books from an indie source.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by Nick_Djinn

%15 is 15%. The other factor is the shipping, and the number of middle men. The Publisher, the distributor, the corporate distributor, the regional corporate distributor, the store, then the overhead for the storefront and all the employees.

As well as all that, there will be a percentage to cover "lost" sales through people buying it second hand. Since there is no such thing as a second hand ebook, that cost should also be removed because it doesn't apply.

From a buyer's perspective the resale value of a new paperbook is about 50%, but it's unlikely the publisher's estimate for that portion of the price will be anywhere near that high despite the possibility of a paperbook being resold several times during its life.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

I have a problem with anyone who currently suggests that the best strategy for ebooks is to cut the price drastically and make it up on volume. Making it up on volume only works when you have volume.

The last figures I saw put ebooks at about 5% of the US market, which implies that ebooks are read by about 1% of the population if we accept the earlier figure of 1/5 (20%) of the US population as readers. The numbers just aren't there.

It would be reasonable to assume that 100% of the people downloading unauthorised ebooks are ebook readers, even if they don't read everything that they download. If the book industry's figures on "piracy" are to believed, those people are a significantly large market, so it would make sense to try to tap into it. I'm not really convinced that price is the main barrier to sales for most people, but it will be for some of them.

[Anke Wehner]

Quite a few people who download ebooks illegally are not in the USA - and some of them download illegally because they have tried to buy them legally, but were not allowed to.

The publishing industry and book sellers have quite a bit of work ahead of them to sort out ebook business...

[Kali Yuga]

Originally Posted by Nick_Djinn

%15 is 15%. The other factor is the shipping, and the number of middle men.....

ALL paper costs amounts to 15%. Printing, inventory, distribution add up to about 15%.

I.e. switching from paper to digital doesn't cut the book's costs by 75%, 50% or 25%. It's more like 15%.

Originally Posted by Nick_Djinn

Its not that expensive.

Yes, dude, it really is going to be that expensive.

You're planning to subsidize the equivalent of billions of dollars of ebook purchases, plus build out a huge infrastructure to support it, plus you're going to need lots of oversight.

And if this leads to more people borrowing more books (as you propose), that's going to mean more money thrown at this process.

Originally Posted by Nick_Djinn

We already have a public library system where you can already download e-readers. It has not expanded the scope of government or turned us into Communist China.

True, but that's because it is one part of a larger system of book availability.

Have you failed to notice all the hub-bub every time the National Endowment for the Arts, or any other government agency funds something that someone finds "offensive?" In the last few months, Congress threatened to pull funding from National Public Broadcasting because they fired a correspondent who made an anti-Muslim remark, and from the Smithsonian for showing a work of art where ants crawled on a crucifix.

What do you think will happen if 1/3 of a library's ebook lending budget goes towards lending porn? You think your Senator is going to smile approvingly and say "hey, people are reading more now!"

There is no question that a radical expansion of ebook lending will create an expensive new entitlement that everyone will want to use, that no one will actually want to pay for, and will be threatened with a loss of funding the instant any remotely offensive text gets checked out.

Originally Posted by Nick_Djinn

The current system we have with e-books at the public library is unsatisfactory. Checking out books is a nuisance, and ebooks are usually CHECKED OUT!!! WTF? How can an ebook be checked out?

*sigh*

OK, here's the deal. A library basically contracts with Overdrive, which charges them a fee for every time an ebook is checked out.

If there were no limits, library patrons could theoretically bankrupt the library in short order, as they would check out tons of books they can't read right away. Why not indefinitely check out as many ebooks as you want? After all, it's "free" right...?



By the way, despite your correct observations that libraries are relatively cheap, guess what? Their budgets are still getting cut.

While I support libraries, an expansion of library lending services to the point where it drastically reduces piracy is simply not going to happen.

[Lemurion]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

It would be reasonable to assume that 100% of the people downloading unauthorised ebooks are ebook readers, even if they don't read everything that they download. If the book industry's figures on "piracy" are to believed, those people are a significantly large market, so it would make sense to try to tap into it. I'm not really convinced that price is the main barrier to sales for most people, but it will be for some of them.

It is reasonable to believe that 100% of the people downloading unauthorized ebooks are ebook downloaders. They may or may not be readers, but we don't know that.

Also, ebook piracy, like reading in general, is on a relatively small scale in comparison to music and movies. There may be more volume there than current ebook sales, but that still doesn't mean it's a large market. Ebooks are still a niche market, even with piracy.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

It is reasonable to believe that 100% of the people downloading unauthorized ebooks are ebook downloaders. They may or may not be readers, but we don't know that.

Also, ebook piracy, like reading in general, is on a relatively small scale in comparison to music and movies. There may be more volume there than current ebook sales, but that still doesn't mean it's a large market. Ebooks are still a niche market, even with piracy.

MP3 players didn't really take off until piracy went mainstream with all the publicity that Napster got. I would say hardware ebook readers are in their pre-Napster stage at the moment, though they do seem to be getting steadily cheaper year after year. I don't think they will become mass market until you can buy them in Tesco/Wallmart type places for the price of a couple of hardbacks.

[Nick_Djinn]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Sorry, Nick, but I really fail to see what relevance patents have to do with this discussion. Could you elaborate?

Books that are not patented do not require that royalties be paid. Anyone can downloand classics from before 1920 something for free and its not stealing, because they didnt have the same laws protecting authors back then. Also, I think there are limits to how long some patents last. Once a drug goes generic anyone can sell it. It might be the same with books, depending on where in the world you live.

[Ravensknight]

I know my remark here is useless, but I have to say, this thread has been a fabulously fun read this evening.
My wife had to ask me why I kept bursting out in laughter...