The Future of this Forum

[garcle]

What about the idea of having a Calibre Wiki?

Wiki's (curated knowledge repositories), are "organic" in the sense that they can grow as structure demands, they have hyperlinking capabilities built in and they would allow "levels of nesting" so that topics can move from General Overviews to General Capabilities, to General task, to more specific tasks, to recipes.
Forums are terrible places to record knowledge, because there is no index and topics quickly become very large, and begin to split into different subject areas.

Wikis also allow people with the time to help. They encourage participation and aren't mired by release approval processes.

Here is an example of the main wiki for the Python Programming language (the language Calibre is written in) which can give a feel of how a Calibre Wiki could be structured. (think conceptual, not specifics)
http://wiki.python.org/moin/

[Manichean]

Mobileread already has a wiki. Calibre even has an entry. However, this would add a third place for new users to have to go and look for information, and a wiki would be, in appearance, rather similar to the official documentation, so the two would have to be kept somewhat in sync. I'd advise against adding an elaborate manual to the wiki.

[garcle]

How about shutting down the main user manual and moving it to the wiki?

That way you would only have one place to send people.

And you would have the Wiki advantage of being able to let the community evolve the documentation in a hierarchical and hyperlinked structure. The can quickly be added to as new "solutions" to common problems are written.

i.e. "the same old questions" can be placed into an ordered repository.

[kovidgoyal]

In order to do that, the Wiki would first have to achieve feature parity with the current User Manual.

[honeyrose]

I think I must be one of the people being criticised here. The thing is I am not trying to be dumb. I am fairly computer literate but I have not been able to open the user manual on my downloaded version of Calibre 0.4.72 which I downloaded yesterday, as new Kindle user.

The Quick Start guide on the Calibre version I downloaded simply does not open - not on Windows XP Pro on my machine at least. I just get an unknown file format error message, regardless of whether I click on the image or the title etc. But still people here tell me to read the User Guide. You know I would if I could.

Similarly I do know how to open a function on a toolbar (I use InDesign for ..... sake). But on my Calibre toolbar the down arrows on the toolbar options also generate error messages. Yet when I come here for advice I am told I do not understand how to use it.

The feeling I am getting is that some of you think its use should be reserved for programming types only and anyone who does not understand how it works/cannot debug it, and is not a long term user, is a nuisance who is clogging up the space in the big boys' playpen.

This is a shame - if it is such a great piece of software and you can't make it a bit simpler to use, can't you at least show some sympathy to those of us struggling with its idiosyncracies.

[garcle]

Originally Posted by kovidgoyal

In order to do that, the Wiki would first have to achieve feature parity with the current User Manual.

What is it lacking?

edit: I wasn't trying to be funny, Did you mean feature parity in terms of the content? (I was thinking in terms of the "architecture" of the wiki versus the manuals)

[kovidgoyal]

Originally Posted by garcle

What is it lacking?

I meant it would need to have all the content that is currently in the User Manual.

[itimpi]

Originally Posted by honeyrose

Similarly I do know how to open a function on a toolbar (I use InDesign for ..... sake). But on my Calibre toolbar the down arrows on the toolbar options also generate error messages. Yet when I come here for advice I am told I do not understand how to use it.

I am surprised that you do not get help with genuine errors. I would expect some initial sceptism that the problem is not simply "User Error" but as long as some good evidence is supplied I would expect active involvement from relevant developers in trying to identify the cause. This is one area that having a good pro-forma for how to usefully report issues would be useful. For instance a screen shot of a problem is often much more useful that a lot of words - but is rarely provided.

The feeling I am getting is that some of you think its use should be reserved for programming types only and anyone who does not understand how it works/cannot debug it, and is not a long term user, is a nuisance who is clogging up the space in the big boys' playpen.

This is a shame - if it is such a great piece of software and you can't make it a bit simpler to use, can't you at least show some sympathy to those of us struggling with its idiosyncracies.

I do not believe that is the case. There have been lots of new users who get good advice. I think the key point is to recognise that any support is voluntary and that the user is expected to try and actively participate in resolving any issues. Some of the topic areas are also, by their very nature, complex - which is probably why there is not good, cheap, commercial software to do the same thing that Calibre does.

Another issue can be that there is NO simple answer to many issues. Part of that can be the heritage of Calibre in that initially one had to know some of the technicalities to get non-trivial items done. A side-effect of this issue is that in some cases no way has yet been developed to hide the complexity of achieving the desired result, or no developer has been found who is willing to contribute the required effort. As a result one has to either live with the current technical requirements or accept that a solution may be some way off (or never arrive). This is one area that Calibre is continually progressing and the regular incremental improvements add up over time.

[Worldwalker]

Originally Posted by user_none

I only see splitting into sub fora if you cannot post in the calibre top level forum. If you can still post in the top level forum no one is going to bother posting in the correct sub fora. I can see the thought process as, "Why post in sub x when more people will see it on top." and "Choices? how about I not choose and just put it. under calibre."

I think that's where having people available to move threads to their proper sub-fora would come into play. I know I shouldn't do this ... I said I wouldn't ever do it again ... but if a forum mod is required to move threads, etc., I'll volunteer.

Yes, there are idiots. And there are dicks. But with calibre, at least, most people try to avoid being either one, and the ones who don't can be dealt with. (hey, get away from me with that two-by-four!) Things won't be worse than they are now, with everything going in one forum, and they might (I think will) be better.

[kovidgoyal]

@honeyrose: Your problems are likely caused by using a Wacom mouse. Try using a normal one. There is an incompatibility between Wacom mice and calibre.

[Starson17]

Originally Posted by kovidgoyal

@honeyrose: Your problems are likely caused by using a Wacom mouse. Try using a normal one.

And in case she doesn't know, Windows is perfectly happy with two mice plugged in. They both work. It's not required to get rid of the Wacom mouse.

[GRiker]

Originally Posted by kovidgoyal

Here are some of my thoughts:
…
- A start here subforum with a few stickies that cover questions in commonly asked categories, and one sticky to give guidelines on how to ask a question.

- Three or four sub fora for the advanced topics: Recipes, plugins, plugboards, regexes?, conversions, catalogs? Each sub forum can have a couple of stickies for important/common topics.

What's needed to make this work is that a few calibre advanced users/developers volunteer to hang out in the sub fora of their particular interests. And it would be great if a few less advanced people would hang out in the start here/geenral forum and welcome/direct newbies to the appropriate places.

I am willing to monitor and moderate a subforum on catalogs.

I would propose that we also need a Devices subforum, where my frequently-linked-to 'Calibre + iPad: Start here' thread is a sticky.

G

[Piper_]

Looks like you all have done a good job sorting out the issues, so I'll just sign my name on the board for volunteers to help.

I'm not a power-user (yet!), nor a programmer, but I'm pretty geek/non-geek bilingual. (My background is in psych - focused the last 10 years on usability, and as a webmaster/admin on several sites, and a few years teaching, I'm used to handling Q&A and writing how-to guides.)

I love and use calibre daily, and so far, I've been able to understand and get it to do what I, and probably most people, need it to do.
I apologize for not helping answer easy newbie questions more often. It would free up the developers for things only they can do.

So I'll work on that and offer my help developing FAQ or Wiki answers that translate geek speak to language and instructions non-geeks can find and follow.

[Worldwalker]

Originally Posted by honeyrose

I think I must be one of the people being criticised here.

You are not.

All my jokes about being the resident meanie aside, I name names and call out people who are acting like jerks. If I haven't told you off, I don't mean you.

Yet when I come here for advice I am told I do not understand how to use it.

This is your third post. Looking at the other two and their responses, this is not what I'm seeing. Manichean said that you're doing something wrong and should look at the video on how to use calibre, or the manual which is right next to it, Web-page-wise. That would be good advice. GRiker told you what should work for reading the User Guide -- if you do that and it doesn't, you have a different problem from the one it looks like you have. Kovid and dwanthny talked to each other about the video. You posted again, and dwanthny responded to you directly and asked for further information, which you have not yet provided, and suggested some steps for you to try. The thread then went crashing off on a tangent to discuss the QS guide and its presence, absence, and location, but returned with GRiker giving you further information and telling you that if you've tried everything given and it's still not working, your installation is borked.

Come to think of it, maybe you are the kind of person we're talking about. You were given copious advice, which you chose to ignore, and asked several questions that would allow for further troubleshooting, which you chose not to answer. Instead, you apparently want someone to come out to your house and set up calibre the way you like it. It doesn't work that way.

The feeling I am getting is that some of you think its use should be reserved for programming types only and anyone who does not understand how it works/cannot debug it, and is not a long term user, is a nuisance who is clogging up the space in the big boys' playpen.

That is utterly untrue.

Users are expected to be clueful (that is, not butt-stupid and eager to stay that way) and work with the people who are trying to help them, not sit around like inert objects waiting for something to happen without their involvement. But that requires only participation and active involvement, not programming or debugging skills. Hell, there are people here who consider me a power user (which I'm not, by the way) and I know far less about Python the language than I do about pythons the snakes; I've never poked around under calibre's hood (though, as a person who attempts to be clueful, if I found it necessary to do so, I wouldn't whine; I'd go to the O'Reilly website and start shopping for Python books). I've been accepted, even welcomed, here since my first day and my first question.

This is a shame - if it is such a great piece of software and you can't make it a bit simpler to use, can't you at least show some sympathy to those of us struggling with its idiosyncracies.

I've been steeped in what one might call the "hacker culture" for a very long time, so I don't think in terms of petting someone's emotions. Sympathy and fifty cents won't even get you a cup of coffee anymore. Help is useful. This forum provides help by the bucketful. I'm sure there's a support group somewhere that can dole out all the sympathy anyone could want, but I doubt if they can fix calibre problems.

By the way, calibre is simple to use. It appears that you have some sort of problem, but problems exist for only a tiny minority of users. Most people install calibre and set to using it without ever having to visit this forum at all. Something snuck up and bit you, and needs to be dealt with, but it's a bug (or a PEBKAC error), not a problem with calibre being insufficiently easy to use.

I would suggest, by the way, reading the explanations I linked to (Microsoft's and Eric Raymond's) about how to ask a question that will get results. They might provide some additional resources for asking yours. Also ... try the things people in your thread suggested, and tell them what the results were, so they can better understand your problem and offer more effective suggestions.

Edit: Wacom everything are weird. But we can't live without 'em. I've pretty much given up on the mouse that came with my graphics tablet, though, because it gives Windows migraines at random intervals, and my migraines track with Windows'.

[kovidgoyal]

OK I've added a tentative new forum structure to the first post of this thread, please propose modifications as you see fit.

I'll also update a list of volunteers, as people volunteer, who should be given moderating privileges on calibre and its sub-fora, assuming Alex is ok with that.