How to get the Kindle 3 to display page #'s?

[pboss]

Originally Posted by silasgreenback

When I'm reading paper books, I'll get out the calculator from time to time and determine the percentage.

If I'm on page 163 of a 356 page book, I'd rather know that I'm 45.7% done with it.

Exactly... and it's kind of fun watching how many percentage you gain with each page turn. Text reflow and hyperlinks make pagination kinda useless for most of us. But I see how it can be a huge pain for others when conversion between formats makes you lose the original pagination.

[kiwidude]

Having just bought a Kindle for my parents and tried to explain what a "location" is to them I really think the programmers have won over common sense on this one. A "location" range is completely and utterly meaningless to 99.99% of Kindle users. I can hear the pencil pocket protectors being swung into action as people try to justify exactly what the number means and why it is important to have that over a page number.

I understand the arguments against page numbers about font size etc affecting them. However it doesn't change the fact that for the given settings I have there are x turns to get to the "page" I am on, and x turns left to the end of the book. Does x change when I change font size? Sure? But so what - once I pick I font size I get on with reading the book. It would still be nice to know if I am 10 or 100 "pages" away from the end when contemplating switching the light off at night, rather than I am at location 12xxx-12yyy...

Locations are lame. Hide the location #'s completely and avoid all the confusion with just a simple % and graphical bar. Add a settings option in there somewhere if geeks want to turn location #'s on, but let the rest of us avoid the utter confusion and distraction they cause ...

Rant over

[twowheels]

Originally Posted by kiwidude

I can hear the pencil pocket protectors being swung into action as people try to justify exactly what the number means and why it is important to have that over a page number.

I resent this statement. My protector remains safely ensconced in my pocket!

[FF2]

Originally Posted by twowheels

I resent this statement. My protector remains safely ensconced in my pocket!

And I'm sure you know exactly what LOCATIONS it has been in!

[Pushka]

If you get used to having page numbers, then you can also get used to having locations. Except for Scientific quotation, I just dont get all the angst with % and locations.

[kiwidude]

Originally Posted by Pushka

If you get used to having page numbers, then you can also get used to having locations. Except for Scientific quotation, I just dont get all the angst with % and locations.

Well I don't agree that you can "get used" to locations. They have no meaning whatsoever in terms of giving you information on how far through the book you are or how far to go. The only "use" they have is for someone who wants to tell you how many bytes or whatever you are through the book. They are a complete and utter nonsense.

As for why the angst - it is information displayed that just doesn't need to be there, and if nothing else we should have an option to be able to hide it. It is one more thing that the brain gets sidetracked by and wonders "wtf is this again" when you should be focusing on reading the words in the book.

Yes over time you train yourself to zone them out for periods of time, and I have read here about people going as far as putting tape over that part of the screen etc. However as I say when trying to get my Mum feel comfortable about reading a book on the Kindle and not being scared off by it being too "techy" it is one thing extra in her face that shouldn't be there.

Oh and by the way - I am a software developer in my day job, so I am not "anti-geek". I just think the inmates got out of the asylum on this one...

[DMSmillie]

Why is having location numbers displayed at the bottom of the screen any more distracting than having page numbers printed at the bottom of the page in a printed book?

Like Pushka, I just don't get all the angst over this, and would suggest it is simply a case of being used to one, and not yet used to the other.

[kiwidude]

Originally Posted by DMSmillie

Why is having location numbers displayed at the bottom of the screen any more distracting than having page numbers printed at the bottom of the page in a printed book?

You clearly don't "get it", and more power to you for not having an issue with it. Unlike a page number at the bottom of a book, the location number ranges have no meaning to a human brain. None. Zero. Zilch. Page numbers in conjunction with knowing how many in your book on the other hand do have a purpose - be it to judge how far through the book you are, how many pages left to finish, estimate in your mind how long before you are done with a book or whatever. Don't even try to say that location 8372-8496 tells you anything at all towards that. The % does which is great, I am stoked that is there. It is having the meaningless location numbers visible that grates.

Originally Posted by DMSmillie

Like Pushka, I just don't get all the angst over this, and would suggest it is simply a case of being used to one, and not yet used to the other.

You can "suggest" what you like, however I can tell you for a fact I will never ever come to think of a location as any kind of useful piece of information.

I've attempted to express my pov so I'm not going to harp on about it yet again. Some disagree, I'm happy for you it doesn't bother you. For myself and my parents, I am trying to show them the joys of reading a book on a screen. Extraneous garbage that adds no value to the reading experience detracts from that imho.

[twowheels]

Originally Posted by kiwidude

You can "suggest" what you like, however I can tell you for a fact I will never ever come to think of a location as any kind of useful piece of information.

As a software developer (like you) I found it very interesting when I encountered the word "big-endian" at location 540 in Gulliver's Travels (free BTW, you can download it to see it in context and jump to location 540)... it caused me to wonder if that was the origin of the word in computer science, if it was a play on words... some research after finding it there confirmed my suspicion.

Regardless of which Kindle device you have, which font size you use, and which margin size you prefer you can now read it in context without having to search.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by kiwidude

Well I don't agree that you can "get used" to locations. They have no meaning whatsoever in terms of giving you information on how far through the book you are or how far to go.

Of course they do. "Locations 840-47 of 14780" gives you precisely the same amount of information as would "Page 23 of 472".

The only "use" they have is for someone who wants to tell you how many bytes or whatever you are through the book.

No. Their primary purpose is to allow you to give a reference within a book. You can refer someone to the text at location 1250, and that will be invariant regardless of what font size someone has selected, or whether they are reading on a K2, K3, or DX (all of which display different amounts of text on the screen).

They are a complete and utter nonsense.

I understand that you don't like them, but please don't extend that to an automatic assumption that the rest of the world shares your views!

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by twowheels

As a software developer (like you) I found it very interesting when I encountered the word "big-endian" at location 540 in Gulliver's Travels (free BTW, you can download it to see it in context and jump to location 540)... it caused me to wonder if that was the origin of the word in computer science, if it was a play on words... some research after finding it there confirmed my suspicion.

Yes, the terms "big-endian" and "little-endian", as used to refer to the byte ordering in CPUs, do come from "Gulliver's Travels".

[Starko]

Originally Posted by DMSmillie

Why is having location numbers displayed at the bottom of the screen any more distracting than having page numbers printed at the bottom of the page in a printed book?

Like Pushka, I just don't get all the angst over this...

Besides the fact that subconsciousness constantly trying to figure out the meaning of location numbers?

There is nothing wrong with you not understanding. It's because you are different from those who complain about location numbers.

With my tongue firmly planted in my cheek, I call them Homo logicus: a species slightly—but distinctly—different from Homo sapiens. From my own observations, I have isolated four fundamental ways in which they think and behave differently from normal humans. Homo logicus trade simplicity for control. Homo logicus Exchange Success for Understanding. They are driven by an irresistible desire to understand how things work. By contrast, Homo sapiens have a strong desire for success. Homo logicus also want to succeed, but they will frequently accept failure as the price to pay for understanding.

Here is a humorous litmus test called the Jetway Test to highlight the difference. To perform this test, all you have to do is visualize yourself walking down the corridor of a Jetway as you board an airliner. As you step onto the aircraft, you have a choice of going left into the cockpit or right into the cabin.
To the left, the cockpit is a kaleidoscope of complex controls and gauges, with every urface covered with instruments, knobs, and levers. To the right, in stark contrast, lies the cabin, where everything is gently rounded, smooth, and a calm-inducing shade of beige.
To turn left into the cockpit means that you must learn and master all the complicated technical stuff. You must know what every one of those instruments means. In exchange for understanding all that complexity is the certain knowledge that you are in control and that you are responsible for landing the aircraft at the right place.
To turn right into the cabin means that you relinquish all authority over the flight. In exchange for abdication of control, you get to relax, knowing that you will arrive at the proper destination without dealing with anything more complex than turning the reading light on and off.
The Jetway Test neatly divides the human race into two categories: Those who turn left strongly desire to be in control and to understand how the technology works, and those who turn right strongly desire to simplify their thinking and to have confidence in the success of the flight. Homo logicus—always want to turn left.
Homo sapiens—always want to turn right.

While location is a good thing for pinpointing (arbitrarily) exact location within a book it has little meaning while reading. If it was up to me i'd hide it and provide a way to access that number if needed.
Percentage is not the same as a page number. It's more like seeing how the thickness of left side of the book (part that have been read) relates to the total thickness of the book.
Total number of locations is another bit of information that is rather useless. Besides seeing that this book has a bigger number than another.

I'd like to hide them all: percentage, current location and total number of locations, and have one or two more lines of text instead.
When i really need to see my space shuttle's dashboard i'd press Menu. Just like i do when i need to see what time it is.

I wonder besides giving a point of reference for scientific books what are the other uses of Page numbers in printed media?

I can describe one situation when I miss "page number" in Kindle: i am almost at the end of an exciting book, but it's late, really late at night. I know my kids will be up and jumping early in the morning...I trying to make up my mind: should i keep going or stop now? The percentage shows 99% but how many pagefulls of text does it mean - 1 or 50?
if i knew that there were only 10 or so pagefulls more, i would keep reading. IF more i'd stop.

Of course, you could say: "calculate the number of locations in current view and then calculate the difference between the total number of locations and current location. Then divide that difference by the number of locations on page. tah dah!!!"

NO THANK YOU

[meme]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Of course they do. "Locations 840-47 of 14780" gives you precisely the same amount of information as would "Page 23 of 472".

I wouldn't say its the same information. The Location information does not appear to reflect what you see as you read. If I flip through a book and try to guess how many locations will pass as you move through the text I can't do it intuitively. But a page number on a physical book maps exactly to what you see. Move one page and you expect the number to go up by one.

I've no problem using a byte count to identify the exact location to use for reference - and its great that Kindle includes it. But I'd like showing it to be configurable so that I'm not distracted by it.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Starko

I wonder besides giving a point of reference for scientific books what are the other uses of Page numbers in printed media?

Their primary purpose was simply to allow the printer (and the reader) to have a quick and reliable method of making sure that all the pages were present in the book.

[Pushka]

Originally Posted by kiwidude

Well I don't agree that you can "get used" to locations. They have no meaning whatsoever in terms of giving you information on how far through the book you are or how far to go. The only "use" they have is for someone who wants to tell you how many bytes or whatever you are through the book. They are a complete and utter nonsense

OK, so if you have spent say, three hours and the kindle says you have read 25%, then surely this gives you exactly the info you need to know how much more of the book there is to read? This is way more helpful than page numbers, which, if I recall from DTB's, always appear at the bottom of the page. So why are they not distracting also? As for location numbers, I seem to be able to use them to get back to where I was reading if my page gets lost. Maybe they should be called bookmarkers or something. But whatever they are called, I have actually used them so they must mean something to my poor brain....

As for mothers coping with technology, my 85 year old mother frequently tells me she is x% into her book. She loves the kindle as it has allowed her to read again, and thanks to NiLuJe's work in making super fonts, she is wrapt.