New feature request - Sortable Dewey Metadata - Page 2

itimpi · 01-10-2011, 03:52 AM

I do not think that anyone is concerned with simply adding another column to the user interface. Whatever the field that is required this is already easy via the custom column capability.

If someone is prepared to write a suitable Plugin it should also be easy to retrieve this information as part of getting metadata when it exists in online databases.

The big job comes when a custom GUI capability is required to fully exploit this data.

kovidgoyal · 01-10-2011, 11:35 AM

The LCCN column is legacy from a time when I thought I would implement it, but I never ended up doing it.

My sticking point with this is that:

1) Very few users would benefit from this. Essentially only people that understood the system, and apart from librarians, who does? Plain text tags, while far less precise are more approachable.

1.5) It therefore needs to be default off in the GUI and in metadata fetches.

garcle · 01-10-2011, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kovidgoyal

The LCCN column is legacy from a time when I thought I would implement it, but I never ended up doing it.

My sticking point with this is that:

1) Very few users would benefit from this. Essentially only people that understood the system, and apart from librarians, who does? Plain text tags, while far less precise are more approachable.

1.5) It therefore needs to be default off in the GUI and in metadata fetches.

A user does not need to understand the LCCN in order to benefit from it. Sorting your library by LCCN (or dewey), would create a natural browsable list where books that are related are clustered together. One's library could be organised like a physical library, where "shelves" of books are related to each other. The tags would remain and could still be used for searches, but Im talking about Sorting order not filtering. Sorting on the Tag field currently has no value for multi-tag entries, as currently it only sorts on the first tag in the group which is stored in "arbitrary" alphabetical order.

I say "arbitrary", because tags are normally entered in some form of heirarchy and not in alphabetical order. (i.e people don't enter their tags alphabetically)

on 1.5 altho the column is in the database, its not even available to be switched on. ie its not in the list of available columns.

chaley · 01-10-2011, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garcle

on 1.5 altho the column is in the database, its not even available to be switched on. ie its not in the list of available columns.

There are a many things to do to 'switch on' that column.
- Add it to the GUI (formatting, gui widgets etc)
- make it editable (lots of GUI cruft including delegates and edit widgets)
- add it to edit metadata, bulk edit, book info, book details, search, tags browser, content server, catalog, OPF, device caches, and probably a bunch of other places.

After all that work, all you have is a text column that you could make today with a text custom column, no more, no less.

garcle · 01-10-2011, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaley

There are a many things to do to 'switch on' that column.
- Add it to the GUI (formatting, gui widgets etc)
- make it editable (lots of GUI cruft including delegates and edit widgets)
- add it to edit metadata, bulk edit, book info, book details, search, tags browser, content server, catalog, OPF, device caches, and probably a bunch of other places.

How do you eat an elephant?

But point taken.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaley

After all that work, all you have is a text column that you could make today with a text custom column, no more, no less.

What about sorting performance? presumably there would be some penalty for trying to sort on a field in a foreign table (custom_column_x)?

chaley · 01-11-2011, 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garcle

What about sorting performance? presumably there would be some penalty for trying to sort on a field in a foreign table (custom_column_x)?

Sorting and searching are done on the flattened in-memory cache, so there would be no difference in performance.

There would be a difference in loading the cache. Using a column in the books table would cost nothing. Using my 20,000 book test library, after adding a new custom text column, loading the cache costs an extra 0.1 second (+/- some; it is very hard to get accurate measurements of such small deltas). I don't think that an extra 5 microseconds per book is a deal-killer.

sassanik · 01-11-2011, 01:47 PM

Seriously? Does anyone even bother using the Dewey system these days? I could see the Library of Congress numbering system, but even that is a stretch.

Amy

CWatkinsNash · 01-11-2011, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sassanik

Seriously? Does anyone even bother using the Dewey system these days? I could see the Library of Congress numbering system, but even that is a stretch.

Amy

*raises hand* I would if the feature to download the data was available. I'm not requesting it, but if it was there I'd use it. I just don't like the LOC classifications for some reason. Or maybe subconsciously I know that if the LOC system was in place, I'd be tempted to catalog ALL my media instead of just my books.

If the feature was there, I'd use the "empty book" option to catalog my pbooks, because most of them are non-fiction and would benefit from the system more than the mostly-fiction titles on my Kindle. As it stands, I could get a separate program to do that, but I'd be more likely to do it in Calibre.

garcle · 01-11-2011, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sassanik

Seriously? Does anyone even bother using the Dewey system these days? I could see the Library of Congress numbering system, but even that is a stretch.

Amy

The Dewey system is far more logical and better laid out than the library of congress system, think of the Metric system compared to the Imperial!!

I have given many good reasons why having the Dewey or LCCN in Calibre would be a good thing, so far I haven't heard any serious objection other than it would be hard to program. Online databases exist that can make ISBN to Dewey and LCCN mappings so that objection is moot. Consider how it may benefit yourself even if you don't know the subject codes before you dismiss it. And if it provides no benefit to you, be considerate of those for whom it would benefit. ie don't shoot something down just because it doesn'tt suit you. It would have no negative impact whatsoever to those that didn't need it so why criticize it?

theducks · 01-11-2011, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sassanik

Seriously? Does anyone even bother using the Dewey system these days? I could see the Library of Congress numbering system, but even that is a stretch.

Amy

When I visit the Dead Tree Library downtown

sassanik · 01-12-2011, 02:24 AM

Well my local library has not used the Dewey system for more than 15 years.

Is there a international system that is used outside the US in replacement of the Library of Congress system?

I do see that there are valid reasons for people wanting it. Though I do think that percentage of people using it would be small.

Amy

mwcook · 01-12-2011, 06:10 AM

Maybe I've missed a request for this but with the excellent computing power of our personal computers, why not have a "Search All Books Text". This is not just the metadata tags but the actual contents of all books managed by Calibre. For example, I would like to be able to search for "red" and "balloon" in the same sentence (or same paragraph or anywhere in the book). As good as Calibre is, a feature like that would make it absolutely outstanding.

Mike

DoctorOhh · 01-12-2011, 06:34 AM

First Welcome to Mobileread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mwcook

Maybe I've missed a request for this but

Being new here the only thing you missed was posting on the topic of the thread. If you want to start a new topic or change to a different topic please create a new thread and not jump into the middle of an on going conversation with a something so far from the original thread.

I know this topic said New feature request, but it was very specific in listing the specific request as Sortable Dewey Metadata.

You can create a new thread from the main forum page (see attached).

That aside your idea is good, but if I recall correctly it is very far down the list of things to do, if on the list at all. Enhancement requests and Bug reports can be officially entered into calibre's tracker, read here for details.

Manichean · 01-12-2011, 07:10 AM

I have to add my two cents to this discussion, because one point hasn't been made yet:
I'm absolutely no expert on library sorting systems, but a quick (single-digit minutes) research on Wikipedia seems to suggest to me that the Dewey system is well and good for english- language libraries, but may be too specific for other languages. If any sorting system should be integrated into Calibre, I believe it should be one that supports at least the major languages well- off the top of my head I would say english, spanish, french, german at the very least, maybe russian and portugese as well. That should cover at least a large amount of the userbase, I believe.

That being said, I personally have no interest in such a system, but i wouldn't mind it being implemented either way. It might help in classifying my textbooks, but then again, my tags already do that well enough for me. If it were implemented, I might use it, but then again, I might not

itimpi · 01-12-2011, 07:27 AM

The big problem with the Dewey system is that is hierarchical. I can see that this is necessary for physical books as they have to be filed somewhere. However that means that one is at the mercy of the person who decided what the hierarchy should be for a particular book. I much prefer the tag system as that means I can add any sort of classifications to a book, and do not have to worry about their relationship to each other. It therefore seems a much more powerful method of categorising books than Dewey provides.

01-11-2011, 01:47 PM	#22
sassanik Guru Posts: 774 Karma: 1211741 Join Date: May 2008 Location: Oregon Device: EB1150, iPhone, Cool-er Purple, Pocketbook 360, Kindle Fire	Seriously? Seriously? Does anyone even bother using the Dewey system these days? I could see the Library of Congress numbering system, but even that is a stretch. Amy

01-12-2011, 02:24 AM	#26
sassanik Guru Posts: 774 Karma: 1211741 Join Date: May 2008 Location: Oregon Device: EB1150, iPhone, Cool-er Purple, Pocketbook 360, Kindle Fire	ahh Well my local library has not used the Dewey system for more than 15 years. Is there a international system that is used outside the US in replacement of the Library of Congress system? I do see that there are valid reasons for people wanting it. Though I do think that percentage of people using it would be small. Amy

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01-10-2011, 03:52 AM	#16
itimpi Wizard Posts: 4,553 Karma: 950151 Join Date: Nov 2008 Device: Sony PRS-950, iphone/ipad (Marvin/iBooks/QuickReader)	I do not think that anyone is concerned with simply adding another column to the user interface. Whatever the field that is required this is already easy via the custom column capability. If someone is prepared to write a suitable Plugin it should also be easy to retrieve this information as part of getting metadata when it exists in online databases. The big job comes when a custom GUI capability is required to fully exploit this data.

01-10-2011, 11:35 AM	#17
kovidgoyal creator of calibre Posts: 45,349 Karma: 27182818 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Mumbai, India Device: Various	The LCCN column is legacy from a time when I thought I would implement it, but I never ended up doing it. My sticking point with this is that: 1) Very few users would benefit from this. Essentially only people that understood the system, and apart from librarians, who does? Plain text tags, while far less precise are more approachable. 1.5) It therefore needs to be default off in the GUI and in metadata fetches.

01-12-2011, 06:10 AM	#27
mwcook Junior Member Posts: 1 Karma: 10 Join Date: Jan 2011 Device: Color Nook	Maybe I've missed a request for this but with the excellent computing power of our personal computers, why not have a "Search All Books Text". This is not just the metadata tags but the actual contents of all books managed by Calibre. For example, I would like to be able to search for "red" and "balloon" in the same sentence (or same paragraph or anywhere in the book). As good as Calibre is, a feature like that would make it absolutely outstanding. Mike

01-12-2011, 07:10 AM	#29
Manichean Wizard Posts: 3,130 Karma: 91256 Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Germany Device: Cybook Gen3	I have to add my two cents to this discussion, because one point hasn't been made yet: I'm absolutely no expert on library sorting systems, but a quick (single-digit minutes) research on Wikipedia seems to suggest to me that the Dewey system is well and good for english- language libraries, but may be too specific for other languages. If any sorting system should be integrated into Calibre, I believe it should be one that supports at least the major languages well- off the top of my head I would say english, spanish, french, german at the very least, maybe russian and portugese as well. That should cover at least a large amount of the userbase, I believe. That being said, I personally have no interest in such a system, but i wouldn't mind it being implemented either way. It might help in classifying my textbooks, but then again, my tags already do that well enough for me. If it were implemented, I might use it, but then again, I might not

01-12-2011, 07:27 AM	#30
itimpi Wizard Posts: 4,553 Karma: 950151 Join Date: Nov 2008 Device: Sony PRS-950, iphone/ipad (Marvin/iBooks/QuickReader)	The big problem with the Dewey system is that is hierarchical. I can see that this is necessary for physical books as they have to be filed somewhere. However that means that one is at the mercy of the person who decided what the hierarchy should be for a particular book. I much prefer the tag system as that means I can add any sort of classifications to a book, and do not have to worry about their relationship to each other. It therefore seems a much more powerful method of categorising books than Dewey provides.