Another grossly overpriced ebook.

[kcmay]

Originally Posted by CyGuy

I am a proponent of the "50% rule" myself, but they used it backwards. In your example above, the eBook should be $5.10, half the price of the paperback.

This.

The large publishers are shooting themselves in the foot with this pricing structure. They should be building their ebook audience by enticing readers, not angering them.

[vaughnmr]

Originally Posted by rhadin

I clearly have no objective data to support my beliefs, but I do know how my friends and neighbors who have bought or were given ebook-reading devices shop for their books. And this is why, regardless of the complaining about pricing done here on MR, publishers are able to successfully impose the agency model on the consuming public.

From my own experience, the complaining about the pricing extends far beyond the MR members, just about every person I've met who mentioned it complained. That and poor quality ebooks, it seems prices are going up and quality is going down. There are some who can afford the high prices, I'm sure, but the recession has affected a lot of other people, at least here in the US.

Yes, some publishers imposed the agency model on consumers, but I think it will take time to tell whether they have been succsessful. They certainly alienated me, but frankly I don't think they care.

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by CommonReader

I don't believe that this is a viable option for most publishers. The ebook genie is out of the bottle and the publishers have no chance to push it back.

Oh, I think that they probably *could* - the ebook market is practically non-existent in most of Europe, for example, and it's a lot more difficult to digitize a book than to to rip a CD.

But I don't think that they want to, since e-books are actually growing the market. I think they just want to make sure that their profits increase as the market grows. As a theory, I don't really have a problem with that.

Price gauging is also risky. People who wouldn't dream of stealing a book from their local book store will act quite differently when faced with the option to download a DRM infested ebook for 24 Euros from a book store or to simply download the same book without DRM for free from some server in Russia. Unlike with HD films you can download books even with a slow internet connection. Up to now publishers were able to ignore this development as people reading ebooks were still quite a minority. With the spread of ebook readers, smartphones, iPads, Android tablets etc. this is going to change massively and publishers will have the same problems as the music industry.

The problem that the music publishers had was that: (1) at first, you couldn't download music legally at all; and (2) second, when you could download it, it was cumbersome and inconvenient. iTunes solved these problems, and how they did it had to do with convenience and access, not with price.

Pricing isn't what drives people to pirate. Pirated books are FREE, and no price can compete with FREE. Certainly dropping a price from $15 to $10 won't.

Originally Posted by vaughnmr

The publishers just love people like you. The question is, are there enough of you around to keep them in business.

The industry looks to be entering a crisis mode right now, and I don't think pissing off your customers is a very good way to prepare for that.

Claims like this don't really make any sense. E-book sales *tripled* in 2010. Amazon sold a huge, albeit undisclosed, number of Kindles. B&N sold a record (for them), albeit undisclosed, number of Nooks. I think the industry would love to have another crisis in 2011.

Originally Posted by rhadin

As some have noted, the real question is simply "what is this particular book worth to you in this particular format?"

Yes.

The other half of the problem is that the more I use my Sony Reader, the less inclined I am to read a pbook; I really enjoy the ebook experience.

And I think that this is true of most people with e-readers. While there are lots of posts at MR talking about how an e-book is worth less than a pbook due to factors like lending, resale, DRM, etc., I've come to disbelieve these claims, since if an e-book were *really* worth less to people, they wouldn't hesitate to buy a cheaper paper book.

I also think that the reality is that most of these ebook buyers simply buy a book that interests them at the then going price without thinking twice about it.

Yes, that's right - most e-book buyers look at the price and if it seems reasonable, they purchase it. What the e-readers provide is convenience, not a discount machine. But - looking at the music industry - convenience, and not price, was what made iTunes successful.

Originally Posted by HarryT

Personally I see absolutely no problem with spending $15 on a good book. That's less than I'd spend for a take-away pizza. A book is worth more to me than a pizza.

Yes. And that appears to be the case with most people. Although it depends on the book and the pizza.

Originally Posted by kcmay

This.

The large publishers are shooting themselves in the foot with this pricing structure. They should be building their ebook audience by enticing readers, not angering them.

They *tripled* sales in one year after introducing agency pricing. Despite complaints on MR, both they and agency pricing have been wildly successful. I'm not thrilled with that either, but facts are facts.

Originally Posted by vaughnmr

From my own experience, the complaining about the pricing extends far beyond the MR members, just about every person I've met who mentioned it complained. That and poor quality ebooks, it seems prices are going up and quality is going down. There are some who can afford the high prices, I'm sure, but the recession has affected a lot of other people, at least here in the US.

Sales have tripled.

Yes, some publishers imposed the agency model on consumers, but I think it will take time to tell whether they have been succsessful. They certainly alienated me, but frankly I don't think they care.

They don't care. Sales have tripled.

(I should probably add that to my signature...)

[OtterBooks]

I think I would be more concerned with the price of the ebook version if the paper version were no longer offered.

Also I have difficulty comparing the value of the two. When I buy an ebook instead of a paper book, I'm not just buying the same thing produced with lower material costs. I'm not saying the price is justified; it may not be. I just don't think the price of one can be judged entirely on the price of the other, like paperback vs. hardcover.

[vaughnmr]

"Sales have tripled".

Imagine what it could have been without the Agency Model pricing! And take a look at the non-agency sales. The #1 ebook is $5.00. Patterson's publisher (Hatchette) tried to sell his book for $14.99, and after the outrage, dropped it down to $12.99. And for some strange reason, Random House (non-agency) is doing a lot better than the cartel.

Go over to the Amazon Kindle NY Time bestseller listings, and look at the comments on agency pricing. After 9 months, people are still angry, and getting more so.

You're right, though. They don't care.

[screwballl]

Andrew, the market is still so new that people are just buying what they want for their readers without much regard to price which is fairly typical for a few months after Christmas like this, AND the first few years of a brand new market type (aka ebooks with the specific purpose of being used on ereaders). As more options come available for online ebook sources, the new owners see the possibilities, they become more vocal and the publishers will end up with 2 choices:
1) drop the price of ebooks a good amount (at least 30-50%), or
2) start losing customers as fewer buy the paper book and refuse to pay the higher price of ebooks from those specific publishers.

The market will dictate the price, just give it a little time and for now just avoid spending money on those particular ebooks.

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by vaughnmr

"Sales have tripled".

Imagine what it could have been without the Agency Model pricing! And take a look at the non-agency sales. The #1 ebook is $5.00. Patterson's publisher (Hatchette) tried to sell his book for $14.99, and after the outrage, dropped it down to $12.99. And for some strange reason, Random House (non-agency) is doing a lot better than the cartel.

Sales may have been higher without agency. Although *profits* may not have been higher, and that's what really matters. But my main point in noting that sales have tripled is to show that the industry is not "in crisis" or losing sales due to angry consumers. Whether sales would have quintupled without agency pricing is just speculation...and, again, it ignores profit.

Go over to the Amazon Kindle NY Time bestseller listings, and look at the comments on agency pricing. After 9 months, people are still angry, and getting more so.

You're right, though. They don't care.

They don't care because people are still buying like crazy.

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by screwballl

Andrew, the market is still so new that people are just buying what they want for their readers without much regard to price which is fairly typical for a few months after Christmas like this, AND the first few years of a brand new market type (aka ebooks with the specific purpose of being used on ereaders).

Maybe, although e-books aren't brand new. In any event, I'm responding to claims that publishers are being punished *now*. Whether things will change in the future is something I am less certain of.

As more options come available for online ebook sources, the new owners see the possibilities, they become more vocal and the publishers will end up with 2 choices:
1) drop the price of ebooks a good amount (at least 30-50%), or
2) start losing customers as fewer buy the paper book and refuse to pay the higher price of ebooks from those specific publishers.

Sorry, but you're just making this up, ignoring the fact that ebooks aren't 30-50% cheaper to produce than paper books or pretending that most consumers will opt for crappy self-published books. The nearest comparable market we've seen is the music market, and since legally downloadable music has been mainstream (i.e., since the itunes music store), there has been no drop in prices; in fact, prices have gone up overall. There is absolutely no reason to assume that books will behave any differently.

Similarly, while everyone was preaching that digital distribution of music on iTunes would lead to a golden age of independent self-produced music, this has not happened: people still want music that is professionally produced by music publishing companies. The same is true (and will remain true) of e-books, with, possibly, a small market for indie authors who somehow manage to be heavily promoted by Amazon or B&N, if these retailers chose to do so.

And of course CDs are still 65% of the market.

Note that the average income of Kindle owners is over $80,000 p.a.; the average age is around 40 (aside from the fact that these numbers are lower for the iPad, I don't know statistics for other readers). This demographic isn't really sensitive to a few dollars per book, particularly if it is inconvenient to save the money.

The market will dictate the price, just give it a little time and for now just avoid spending money on those particular ebooks.

I do agree that the market will dictate the price. But I'm not sure it will do what you think it will.

[rogue_librarian]

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

Pricing isn't what drives people to pirate. Pirated books are FREE, and no price can compete with FREE. Certainly dropping a price from $15 to $10 won't.

Pricing is certainly one factor. I'm happy to pay a certain amount for obtaining my ebooks legally and hassel-free. $10 is a good price point. If the book is not available, or not in my market, or for a ridiculous price I usually read something else, but there's a number of people who turn to the darknet instead. Can't say I really blame them.

But - looking at the music industry - convenience, and not price, was what made iTunes successful.

Price as well. A buck a tune, I can afford that. Children can afford that with their lunch money. $14.99 and up for a CD with two or three good songs? Different story.

They don't care. Sales have tripled.

They could have multiplied, I dunno, tenfold. But, yeah, they don't care. We get it.

[SensualPoet]

Originally Posted by Angst

Lost in a Good Book, Jasper Fforde

Paperback (New): $10.20
ebook (Kindle): $14.99

A 50% markup just to read the ebook. As a matter of fact, for every book by Jasper Fforde carried by Amazon, the ebook price is higher than the paperback price. I'm getting really, really pissed off at the new agency rules.

I'm really surprised no one has picked up on this book being published by Penguin. Penguin has been among the most erratic of ebook pricers, it seems. And, cheer up: the ebook isn't sold at all in Canada.

There is one Jasper Fforde title at Kobobooks: Shades of Grey ... for $18.49. Over at Amazon.ca, the Penguin paper edition is not released but will be $13.51. A hardcover is available at $20.38. And Amazon's Kindle edition is $11.14 in Canada. Confused yet?

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by rogue_librarian

Pricing is certainly one factor. I'm happy to pay a certain amount for obtaining my ebooks legally and hassel-free. $10 is a good price point. If the book is not available, or not in my market, or for a ridiculous price I usually read something else, but there's a number of people who turn to the darknet instead. Can't say I really blame them.



Price as well. A buck a tune, I can afford that. Children can afford that with their lunch money. $14.99 and up for a CD with two or three good songs? Different story.

You've really just proved my point. You can buy songs from iTunes for a buck - and yet music piracy is widespread and rampant. $1 is still more than free, and some people want free. You can't price things so cheaply that it still won't be cheaper than free.

They could have multiplied, I dunno, tenfold. But, yeah, they don't care. We get it.

Or maybe book sales would have remained the same. Regardless, by any measure people are buying e-books hand-over-fist (whatever that really means). Claims that people on the internet are "angry" mean nothing as long as people keep buying...and most people seem happy enough to keep buying.

[Anthem]

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

What the e-readers provide is convenience, not a discount machine.

Yes! I added this emphasis because it seems to be one of the top taken for granted deal-ios. So many people seem to think the digital nature of the product entitles them to incredibly good prices the likes of which the world has never truly seen.

[taustin]

Originally Posted by CommonReader

I don't believe that this is a viable option for most publishers.

If they sell for less than it costs to produce for long enough, they'll go out of business, and there will be no professionally produced books. That's the reality of business.

[EricLandes]

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

Sales may have been higher without agency. Although *profits* may not have been higher, and that's what really matters. But my main point in noting that sales have tripled is to show that the industry is not "in crisis" or losing sales due to angry consumers. Whether sales would have quintupled without agency pricing is just speculation...and, again, it ignores profit.

They don't care because people are still buying like crazy.

Publishers are making less money with the agency model.

Old model: $25 hardback and ebook, sell it to the retailer for $12.50. Retailer sells it for the price of their choice. Publisher revenue: $12.50.

Agency model: $25 hardback, ebook sells for $14.99. (I think that's the max allowed ebook price for a $25 hardback according to the pricing scale published long ago.) Retailer keeps 30%; Publisher revenue: $10.49.

The big winner here are the ebook retailers. For a $9.99 ebook new release under the old model, they're probably losing money. They cannot lose money on an agency model ebook.

[rogue_librarian]

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

You've really just proved my point. You can buy songs from iTunes for a buck - and yet music piracy is widespread and rampant.

Is it? It's certainly on the decline. Imagine what the case would be if there were no legal alternatives. I understand that the legal online music market is doing quite well, and better since DRM largely went the way of the dodo.

$1 is still more than free, and some people want free. You can't price things so cheaply that it still won't be cheaper than free.

Of course not, but there is a tipping point of "cheap enough", at least if your time's worth anything at all. I wouldn't spend 10 minutes on some obscure website if I could obtain the same result for a dollar. For books it's largely similar: 10$ I'm fine with. 24.99? Not so much.

Oh, and there's always a demographic that just can't afford these goods legally. The moral choice would be to abstain from consuming them, of course, but it's a fallacy to equal copyright infringements with lost sales.