Amazon Censorship Expands - Page 32

Elfwreck · 01-08-2011, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamthecat

BTW, the publisher tells me "Nook" is not restricted to area or country, so you should be able to buy HTRASG online through them if you can get a Nook shipped to Australia (which might cost as much as the device, in shipping and duties)...but it'd be interesting to know if that's true or if they're just making an assumption.

The Nook device may be available world-wide; that doesn't mean the ebooks on the B&N site are available to anyone who can buy a Nook. Geographic restrictions are often applied even for books where the publisher has world-wide publishing rights; it's too much hassle for the ebook store to set different permissions for individual titles, so all books by a given publisher, or a given line, are arranged with the same restrictions.

The ebook marketplace is plagued by weird contracts and tech problems and a blurry legal landscape, and companies that are so terrified of losing a few dollars somewhere that they'll chop off large portions of their potential customer base.

mr ploppy · 01-08-2011, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamthecat

3. Mine were not the only books Amazon dumped for no understandable reason. They've done this to hundreds, if not thousands, and not just in the US. So I'm not the only person screaming about it.

.

Is there a list?

AGB · 01-08-2011, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

The Nook device may be available world-wide; that doesn't mean the ebooks on the B&N site are available to anyone who can buy a Nook. Geographic restrictions are often applied even for books where the publisher has world-wide publishing rights; it's too much hassle for the ebook store to set different permissions for individual titles, so all books by a given publisher, or a given line, are arranged with the same restrictions.

The ebook marketplace is plagued by weird contracts and tech problems and a blurry legal landscape, and companies that are so terrified of losing a few dollars somewhere that they'll chop off large portions of their potential customer base.

My very first ebook purchase was a book from B&N, and since I live in Denmark, I had to fake my address to that of the hotel in the US I stayed at.

Then, of course, I had to break the DRM in order to be able to read it in my Sony reader, but that's another story.

whitearrow · 01-08-2011, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

Artists are public figures as far as statements about their artwork go as they are considered to have deliberately put themselves in the public view by offering the work to the public.

This just highlights that there is no statement by or about the author at issue; the statement was about the book, and you can't defame a book.

Elfwreck · 01-08-2011, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whitearrow

This just highlights that there is no statement by or about the author at issue; the statement was about the book, and you can't defame a book.

You can defame an author, or any person, by insulting their work. Proving the connection (hypothetically), "this book is a primer for terrorist activity," which results in the author being fired from their gov't job, or "this building is a deathtrap waiting to happen; it's going to collapse any day now," resulting in the contractor being sued for negligence, are cases of insult directed at the work being a matter of defaming the creator of that work.

If a teacher says, "this thesis paper is full of lies and flawed conclusions and doesn't have adequate references," and that evaluation is (1) maliciously false and (2) used to deny a grant, that's defamation, even though the author wasn't directly insulted.

gmw · 01-09-2011, 12:02 AM

Wow! This is some thread. I finally worked my way through it, after having ignored it for too long. Here's what I've learned:

Amazon probably does have the right to drop whatever titles it likes ("titles" being seller-speak for specific books regardless of format).
It's probably not actually a censorship action on Amazon's part, it's more likely to be a business decision based on many factors, most of which we know nothing about. Most book sellers have such policies, and policies can change over time.
Since Amazon are choosing not to make some titles available they should definitely be taken to task for any false advertising to the contrary.
The delayed-reaction nature of Amazon's behaviour does not change any of the above. It makes sense from a business perspective, but it is potentially surprising to those affected.
Everyone, especially the affected author, has a right to an opinion on such action. If enough people express their opinion, in the right way and the right place (not at all sure this is the right place), then Amazon may be persuaded to alter their behaviour - it has happened before, but probable needs to be carefully and specifically targeted.
If I did not intend my book to be controversial then I would probably choose to avoid a book title (as in the big print on the cover) like "How to Rape <someone or something>". Sure it's attention getting, but is it really the sort of attention you want? Such a title is almost guaranteed to offend someone (probably many someones); that much should be obvious, so why be surprised when people are offended? If gaining attention by being offensive-to-some was not your intention, what was?
Despite the previous point, I can certainly understand the surprise that Amazon should react to what sounds like a fairly small public reaction to a title - although I can understand why some people would find the title offensive in and of itself, it may not be an instruction manual but the title sure sounds like one.
It is interesting to compare reactions to censorship in different situations (xref the pedophile book topic), and also to see such interesting challenges to the deceptively simple concept of freedom of speech. That could make an interesting thread on it's own - in a politics and religion forum.
I just love the popcorn emoticon.

carld · 01-09-2011, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmw

Wow! This is some thread. I finally worked my way through it, after having ignored it for too long. Here's what I've learned:

It's probably not actually a censorship action on Amazon's part, it's more likely to be a business decision based on many factors, most of which we know nothing about. Most book sellers have such policies, and policies can change over time.

I would disagree with you on that point. If Amazon removed all novels with "rape" in the title, that would be a business decision. Removing only gay-oriented novels, while leaving similar straight-oriented novels alone, is censorship.

kindlekitten · 01-09-2011, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carld

I would disagree with you on that point. If Amazon removed all novels with "rape" in the title, that would be a business decision. Removing only gay-oriented novels, while leaving similar straight-oriented novels alone, is censorship.

they probably figure that the reading public is aware of more than one definition of rape;

4.
an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation: the rape of the countryside.
5.
Archaic. the act of seizing and carrying off by force.

carld · 01-09-2011, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

they probably figure that the reading public is aware of more than one definition of rape;

4.
an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation: the rape of the countryside.
5.
Archaic. the act of seizing and carrying off by force.

Thanks for the definitions (which I was already well aware of), but you're picking my words apart while ignoring my meaning. Amazon is treating similar gay and straight material differently, call it discrimination, or censorship or a business decision, it's still wrong.

Andrew H. · 01-09-2011, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carld

Amazon is treating similar gay and straight material differently, call it discrimination, or censorship or a business decision, it's still wrong.

I'm kind of interested in this aspect - do we really know that they are treating gay and straight material differently? I thought (although I may well be wrong), that the only "rape" titles removed were two books by one author. That, by itself, isn't enough to convince me that there is discrimination going on. Although I could be convinced if there were similar "rape" titles that they didn't pull. (And by similar I don't mean "The Rape of Nanking," although a novel with a title like "How to Rape a Sorority Girl" would certainly count.)

CWatkinsNash · 01-09-2011, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

I'm kind of interested in this aspect - do we really know that they are treating gay and straight material differently? I thought (although I may well be wrong), that the only "rape" titles removed were two books by one author. That, by itself, isn't enough to convince me that there is discrimination going on. Although I could be convinced if there were similar "rape" titles that they didn't pull. (And by similar I don't mean "The Rape of Nanking," although a novel with a title like "How to Rape a Sorority Girl" would certainly count.)

The do have a notable number of "rape fantasy" titles, including short stories with titles like "What Does A Gal Wear to a Snuff Party", "Amy's Rape", "Raped Virgin Cheerleader Part II" and "Drunk Leslie Learns a Lesson". There are 148 results for "rape erotica" in the Kindle Store.

I was logged in for that search - I should be getting some interesting recommendations from Amazon soon.

jamthecat · 01-09-2011, 07:40 PM

Here's the best place to keep track of the books Amazon has pulled -- http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref.../amazoncensors -- and so far as I can tell, mine are the only two title with "rape" in them that were pulled, and it still appears it was done in direct reaction to that reporter calling one of them pornography. And Amazon is STILL ignoring me. Ah, "what fools these mortals be."

jamthecat · 01-09-2011, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

The Nook device may be available world-wide; that doesn't mean the ebooks on the B&N site are available to anyone who can buy a Nook. Geographic restrictions are often applied even for books where the publisher has world-wide publishing rights; it's too much hassle for the ebook store to set different permissions for individual titles, so all books by a given publisher, or a given line, are arranged with the same restrictions.

The ebook marketplace is plagued by weird contracts and tech problems and a blurry legal landscape, and companies that are so terrified of losing a few dollars somewhere that they'll chop off large portions of their potential customer base.

Okay, I halfway thought they didn't know what they were talking about, but I wanted to give benefit of the doubt.

jamthecat · 01-09-2011, 08:39 PM

This section is from "Rape In Holding Cell 6, volume 1" and is being told by the novel's protagonist, Antony, as he considers telling someone he loves just how crazy he is becoming and how he started being that way.

Moderator Notice
The MobileRead Moderation team has placed this text inside spoiler tags. Members are advised that the text contains explicit sexual content that may be offensive and not appropriate for all audiences.

Spoiler:

It was when I was fourteen years old -- a kid I sort of knew killed himself. Not because he was gay -- he wasn’t; but that didn’t keep some monstrous brats at school from brutalizing him, anyway. Berating him for being gay. Beating up on him for not being man enough for a fifteen year-old. And not one person did anything about it. Not his parents. Not the bullies’ parents. Not the teachers. Nobody. Nobody cared, not really, ‘cause he was just this skinny little fuck who couldn’t take care of himself -- and had nobody who’d take care of him for him -- until he took matters into his own hands.

What’s sad is, even I made fun of him. Because I was scared they’d start doing that shit to me. And so he was found hanging in his bathroom, one morning. And I didn’t feel bad about it. I felt -- better him than me.

But then I watched all the adults and all the little fucks who’d picked on him act like they’d done nothing wrong. Laugh about it. Make sick cracks about it. And that’s when something cracked open inside me. Something deep that slowly built up this hideous anger. Still, I kept it bottled up, inside, afraid of it.

Until a year later. When a kid outside LA got murdered by a classmate for being gay, and hearing about it scared the fuck out of me, at first. I couldn’t go to school for a week because I was sure that everybody knew that I was a fag, too, and fags kill themselves or get killed and I’d be next and -- and -- .

And then I heard that killer’s attorney start blaming everything on the murdered boy, all but brushing aside the fact that a young life had been taken thanks to hatred -- and the anger boiled up, again. That some motherfuckers would make it seem like -- like how you were born is wrong, and is an excuse for slaughter, and they’d make you scared to be who you are because they can’t handle it -- that was so sickening to me, two weeks after the murdered kid’s funeral I told my mom I was gay.

She told dad and they tried to talk me out of it, of course. Said I was just confused and upset. I was too young to understand what I did and didn’t like. Didn’t work. So they asked me to keep it to myself. People in our town might not be so understanding. And I agreed, but for one reason only -- so I could work with the football team. Because five of the suicide kid’s worst tormentors were on the Varsity Squad.

You see, nobody at school did know I was gay, yet. And I’d already been learning about massage and pressure points and stuff from Aikido and that paramedic. So I got the job to clean up the locker room and make sure the guys had towels when they finished showering and finally got to show coach that I could rub out leg cramps and sore arms when he was too busy. And by the end of the football season, I’d rubbed each of those five assholes down good. And made damn sure every one of them got a woody. Very embarrassing for them, but I laughed and explained it away and they thought everything was fine.

Until we returned to school from Christmas break. That’s when I came out to everyone and quietly told a friend (near some nosy-gossipy girls) that I’d sucked every one of the football bastards off -- though the truth was, I hadn’t. They were all butt-ugly to me. Of course, word was all over campus by the end of the day. A couple of the guys found out and tried to beat me up -- and I got knocked around a bit; they outweighed me by twenty pounds each -- but I slammed into freak-out-pissed-off mode for the first time and broke one guy’s nose and another one’s wrist. Then word spread that they’d been beat up by a fag.

Well -- they couldn’t buy their way onto a college football team, after that, no matter how much they swore it wasn’t true. And that is hell for a high school football star from Texas. I’d crushed their dreams in revenge for a kid I barely knew. And I felt good about it. Which scared me, a little -- because I didn’t think I should have felt that way.

But that wasn’t the end of it. After graduation, three of them joined the military -- Army, Marines -- and got sent to Iraq and Afghanistan. One was killed. Another got hit by an IED -- and his parents are taking care of him, now, because he’s just a couple IQ points above a vegetable. The third, I think he’s on his second deployment. The other two -- one’s a dealer who’s his own best client and the other went to Michigan State to get away from the gossip. Last I heard, he’s the only one doing good -- but he was never allowed near the football team.

And I still felt like this was a job well-done.

This is what my story is about -- anti-gay nonsense coming from society and the legal system, and how Antony determines to fight back in ways that become inappropriate and dangerous. There is no underage sex, just a lie perpetrated by Antony. There is no incest. And in the book, rape is presented as a soul-destroying action, not something just to titillate. This section does lead into a very intense sex scene between the adult Antony and Jake, the guy he loves, but is not that much more intense than something you'd find in a Jackie Collins novel.

Just to emphasize my point.

david_e · 01-10-2011, 12:57 AM

Perhaps it is time for this thread to be moved to the Self Promotion category, as that is all it has ever really been.

It was clearly evident to everyone taking the time to read this never-ending commercial that you were not the victim of censorship but of your own poor business decision, whether entered into yourself or by representative, to accept an agreement you have now deemed to be too vague. If it wasn’t too vague when they were selling your books it cannot now be too vague when they decide, within their rights, to stop selling your books. And as you have made no indication that you plan to remove your entire catalogue of work from Amazon, we can only conclude that you do find the terms, as vague as you feel they are, acceptable enough to continue to do business with them.

Censorship is a very serious issue and should be treated as such. If we are continually presented with these cases of author histrionics falsely labeled as censorship we are going to become so leery and so weary as to be numb when the real thing appears. Who, then, will jump to the fight? Certainly not the self-serving, self-labeled victims such as this jamthecat person. They will be too busy lining up for interviews and hoping to get their pictures taken, all the while wearing a t-shirt with their ISBN numbers listed on the front.

01-09-2011, 12:02 AM	#471
gmw cacoethes scribendi Posts: 5,818 Karma: 137770742 Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Australia Device: Kobo Aura One & H2Ov2, Sony PRS-650	Wow! This is some thread. I finally worked my way through it, after having ignored it for too long. Here's what I've learned: Amazon probably does have the right to drop whatever titles it likes ("titles" being seller-speak for specific books regardless of format). It's probably not actually a censorship action on Amazon's part, it's more likely to be a business decision based on many factors, most of which we know nothing about. Most book sellers have such policies, and policies can change over time. Since Amazon are choosing not to make some titles available they should definitely be taken to task for any false advertising to the contrary. The delayed-reaction nature of Amazon's behaviour does not change any of the above. It makes sense from a business perspective, but it is potentially surprising to those affected. Everyone, especially the affected author, has a right to an opinion on such action. If enough people express their opinion, in the right way and the right place (not at all sure this is the right place), then Amazon may be persuaded to alter their behaviour - it has happened before, but probable needs to be carefully and specifically targeted. If I did not intend my book to be controversial then I would probably choose to avoid a book title (as in the big print on the cover) like "How to Rape <someone or something>". Sure it's attention getting, but is it really the sort of attention you want? Such a title is almost guaranteed to offend someone (probably many someones); that much should be obvious, so why be surprised when people are offended? If gaining attention by being offensive-to-some was not your intention, what was? Despite the previous point, I can certainly understand the surprise that Amazon should react to what sounds like a fairly small public reaction to a title - although I can understand why some people would find the title offensive in and of itself, it may not be an instruction manual but the title sure sounds like one. It is interesting to compare reactions to censorship in different situations (xref the pedophile book topic), and also to see such interesting challenges to the deceptively simple concept of freedom of speech. That could make an interesting thread on it's own - in a politics and religion forum. I just love the popcorn emoticon.

01-09-2011, 08:39 PM	#479
jamthecat JamTheCat Posts: 50 Karma: 1630 Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Buffalo, NY Device: none	Snippet from one of my banned works This section is from "Rape In Holding Cell 6, volume 1" and is being told by the novel's protagonist, Antony, as he considers telling someone he loves just how crazy he is becoming and how he started being that way. Moderator Notice The MobileRead Moderation team has placed this text inside spoiler tags. Members are advised that the text contains explicit sexual content that may be offensive and not appropriate for all audiences. Spoiler: It was when I was fourteen years old -- a kid I sort of knew killed himself. Not because he was gay -- he wasn’t; but that didn’t keep some monstrous brats at school from brutalizing him, anyway. Berating him for being gay. Beating up on him for not being man enough for a fifteen year-old. And not one person did anything about it. Not his parents. Not the bullies’ parents. Not the teachers. Nobody. Nobody cared, not really, ‘cause he was just this skinny little fuck who couldn’t take care of himself -- and had nobody who’d take care of him for him -- until he took matters into his own hands. What’s sad is, even I made fun of him. Because I was scared they’d start doing that shit to me. And so he was found hanging in his bathroom, one morning. And I didn’t feel bad about it. I felt -- better him than me. But then I watched all the adults and all the little fucks who’d picked on him act like they’d done nothing wrong. Laugh about it. Make sick cracks about it. And that’s when something cracked open inside me. Something deep that slowly built up this hideous anger. Still, I kept it bottled up, inside, afraid of it. Until a year later. When a kid outside LA got murdered by a classmate for being gay, and hearing about it scared the fuck out of me, at first. I couldn’t go to school for a week because I was sure that everybody knew that I was a fag, too, and fags kill themselves or get killed and I’d be next and -- and -- . And then I heard that killer’s attorney start blaming everything on the murdered boy, all but brushing aside the fact that a young life had been taken thanks to hatred -- and the anger boiled up, again. That some motherfuckers would make it seem like -- like how you were born is wrong, and is an excuse for slaughter, and they’d make you scared to be who you are because they can’t handle it -- that was so sickening to me, two weeks after the murdered kid’s funeral I told my mom I was gay. She told dad and they tried to talk me out of it, of course. Said I was just confused and upset. I was too young to understand what I did and didn’t like. Didn’t work. So they asked me to keep it to myself. People in our town might not be so understanding. And I agreed, but for one reason only -- so I could work with the football team. Because five of the suicide kid’s worst tormentors were on the Varsity Squad. You see, nobody at school did know I was gay, yet. And I’d already been learning about massage and pressure points and stuff from Aikido and that paramedic. So I got the job to clean up the locker room and make sure the guys had towels when they finished showering and finally got to show coach that I could rub out leg cramps and sore arms when he was too busy. And by the end of the football season, I’d rubbed each of those five assholes down good. And made damn sure every one of them got a woody. Very embarrassing for them, but I laughed and explained it away and they thought everything was fine. Until we returned to school from Christmas break. That’s when I came out to everyone and quietly told a friend (near some nosy-gossipy girls) that I’d sucked every one of the football bastards off -- though the truth was, I hadn’t. They were all butt-ugly to me. Of course, word was all over campus by the end of the day. A couple of the guys found out and tried to beat me up -- and I got knocked around a bit; they outweighed me by twenty pounds each -- but I slammed into freak-out-pissed-off mode for the first time and broke one guy’s nose and another one’s wrist. Then word spread that they’d been beat up by a fag. Well -- they couldn’t buy their way onto a college football team, after that, no matter how much they swore it wasn’t true. And that is hell for a high school football star from Texas. I’d crushed their dreams in revenge for a kid I barely knew. And I felt good about it. Which scared me, a little -- because I didn’t think I should have felt that way. But that wasn’t the end of it. After graduation, three of them joined the military -- Army, Marines -- and got sent to Iraq and Afghanistan. One was killed. Another got hit by an IED -- and his parents are taking care of him, now, because he’s just a couple IQ points above a vegetable. The third, I think he’s on his second deployment. The other two -- one’s a dealer who’s his own best client and the other went to Michigan State to get away from the gossip. Last I heard, he’s the only one doing good -- but he was never allowed near the football team. And I still felt like this was a job well-done. This is what my story is about -- anti-gay nonsense coming from society and the legal system, and how Antony determines to fight back in ways that become inappropriate and dangerous. There is no underage sex, just a lie perpetrated by Antony. There is no incest. And in the book, rape is presented as a soul-destroying action, not something just to titillate. This section does lead into a very intense sex scene between the adult Antony and Jake, the guy he loves, but is not that much more intense than something you'd find in a Jackie Collins novel. Just to emphasize my point. Last edited by poohbear_nc; 01-10-2011 at 09:07 AM. Reason: adding content warning

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01-09-2011, 07:40 PM	#477
jamthecat JamTheCat Posts: 50 Karma: 1630 Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Buffalo, NY Device: none	Here's the best place to keep track of the books Amazon has pulled -- http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref.../amazoncensors -- and so far as I can tell, mine are the only two title with "rape" in them that were pulled, and it still appears it was done in direct reaction to that reporter calling one of them pornography. And Amazon is STILL ignoring me. Ah, "what fools these mortals be."

01-10-2011, 12:57 AM	#480
david_e Seriously? Posts: 529 Karma: 3347562 Join Date: Nov 2010 Device: Kobo Aura HD, Kobo Mini, iWhatever	Perhaps it is time for this thread to be moved to the Self Promotion category, as that is all it has ever really been. It was clearly evident to everyone taking the time to read this never-ending commercial that you were not the victim of censorship but of your own poor business decision, whether entered into yourself or by representative, to accept an agreement you have now deemed to be too vague. If it wasn’t too vague when they were selling your books it cannot now be too vague when they decide, within their rights, to stop selling your books. And as you have made no indication that you plan to remove your entire catalogue of work from Amazon, we can only conclude that you do find the terms, as vague as you feel they are, acceptable enough to continue to do business with them. Censorship is a very serious issue and should be treated as such. If we are continually presented with these cases of author histrionics falsely labeled as censorship we are going to become so leery and so weary as to be numb when the real thing appears. Who, then, will jump to the fight? Certainly not the self-serving, self-labeled victims such as this jamthecat person. They will be too busy lining up for interviews and hoping to get their pictures taken, all the while wearing a t-shirt with their ISBN numbers listed on the front.

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