I'm regretting giving my husband a Kindle 3

[travfar]

Originally Posted by ApK

Being a producer of some protected IP and having had the need in the past to discuss the matter with IP lawyers, I'm quite familiar with that citation.

That section of the law does not define fair use. It neither allows nor prohibits any particular use as fair use. It states that there are fair use exceptions, lists some general areas where fair use may apply, and lists some of the factors in deciding IF a use is fair use.
Whether a given use constitutes fair use is decided by the courts, not by that law.

And, as that very citation indicates, profit--any commercial impact-- is merely one of the factors to be considered, certainly not "the big determinate."

As a multiple patent holder and having worked through various issues with the DoJ when I worked for the government. What you posted is wrong on a variety of levels.

One, your basic statement that "Whether a given use constitutes fair use is decided by the courts, not by that law." is fundamentally wrong. The court exists to enforce the law, the law specifies whether something is legal or not. The court cannot "decide" something in contradiction of the law. It can strike down a law if it is in violation of another law. In this instance it is merely enforcing another law.

Two, the profit motive is the big determinate as reinforced by the various court rulings, including the supreme court. They also tend to list the stipulations with the big ones first. The profit motive is the first consideration in the fair use law. They also semi redundantly cover it again in the last one, whether it impacts the market for the work. So it's "big" enough that they state it multiple times.

[HarryT]

travfar, I don't know whether US law differs in this respect, but in UK copyright law profit does not determine whether or not an action violates the law; it does, however, determine the punishment. Copying a DVD and giving it to your mate and making 100 copies of that same DVD and selling them on eBay are both violations of the same law, but the second will be far more severely punished than the first.

[ApK]

Hmm: http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html

As usual, I advise readers with a vested interest to consult an IP lawyer, not strangers on an Internet message board.....

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by travfar

One, your basic statement that "Whether a given use constitutes fair use is decided by the courts, not by that law." is fundamentally wrong. The court exists to enforce the law, the law specifies whether something is legal or not. The court cannot "decide" something in contradiction of the law. It can strike down a law if it is in violation of another law. In this instance it is merely enforcing another law.

Courts (or rather, judges) also interpret the law, and those interpretations very often set legal precidents which other courts then follow. A court can certainly decide, for example, whether or not a particular activity constitutes "fair use".

A good example was the 1984 "Sony Corp. of America v. Universal City Studios, Inc.," case (464 U.S. 417), where Universal Studies tried to prohibit Sony from selling video recorders, claiming that they infringed copyright. Sony won, and the case set a number of important legal precidents, which still exist today: that manufacturers of recording devices cannot be held responsible for acts of copyright infringement committed with those devices, and that recording of TV shows for the purposes of time-shifting constitutes fair use.

[Ken Irving]

Originally Posted by Newfie56

He's wondering if I can return the Kindle, and I don't want to admit defeat (not sure they would even take it).

Thanks in advance for any help.

If library borrowing is a high priority, I think the most practical approach is to admit defeat, return the Kindle, and buy just about anything else. Where library lending is concerned, the rule as of now (unfortunately) is Anything But Kindle. There is not a thing wrong with the Kindle itself - it is just not compatible with the system used by most libraries at present.

Go here:

http://www.overdrive.com/resources/drc/ and select "show devices the support EPUB titles". This will show you the ereader choices you have, and your library web site (or the librarians themselves) can help you understand how the process of checking things out electronically works.

The idea of checking out library books was not at the top of my list when I was deciding which ereader to buy, as I honestly didn't know how well it would work or how useful it would be, but it didn't take me long to warm to the idea. I've probably managed to read at least a book a month that way, sometimes more, and the ones I choose are usually things I wouldn't necessarily buy. I love using an ereader, period, but being able to borrow from the library is a nice extra.

On the other hand, Amazon has good prices and plenty of freebies are there and elsewhere to be found, so you could just go with what you've got, and not worry about the library. Reading this way is a lot of fun, as you might guess from all the people hanging around on this forum!

[travfar]

Originally Posted by ApK

Hmm: http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html

As usual, I advise readers with a vested interest to consult an IP lawyer, not strangers on an Internet message board.....

I agree with consulting a lawyer. The link you posted is the copyright office's interpretation of the law. It is not the text of the law. As with the IRS, who clearly states it's just their opinion, it's only an opinion. I posted a link to the actually text in a previous post.

Here is the actual text again including some discussion of it's background.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/United..._1/Section_107

[kindlekitten]

Originally Posted by HarryT

travfar, I don't know whether US law differs in this respect, but in UK copyright law profit does not determine whether or not an action violates the law; it does, however, determine the punishment. Copying a DVD and giving it to your mate and making 100 copies of that same DVD and selling them on eBay are both violations of the same law, but the second will be far more severely punished than the first.

here the first would probably be ignored, the second *could* get you into trouble especially if you were flagrant about it and did it a lot.

you HAVE however, managed to ignore the key issue that I repeated several times; PERSONAL USE!

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

I'm not going to invest the time researching it, but I know that it has been determined that if you copy media for your personal use, do not distribute it, and do not make money off of it, it is not prosecutable.

and I don't rely on wiki for anything

But if you keep it past the date and can still read it, that may be illegal. The thing is, if you strip the DRM and then read the library eBook, are you really going to check that you have not gone past the return date if you have not yet finished it? I doubt it.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

Thent he folks who posted after having this happen the them did something wrong. Because I read the posts on this site.

What happened was the person had a few eBooks from the library. Put them on the reader, finished one of them and then returned them all. Got another library eBook and put it on the reader via ADE. The returned eBooks (still on the reader) were then made expired. If only the one fished was returned, the others would not have been made expired on the reader when hooked back up to ADE.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by HarryT

It's even more irresponsible not to warn someone that what you are suggesting they do may very well be illegal.

But it is wrong (IMHO) to say for sure it is illegal when we don't actually know if it is or is not.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Newfie56

This has been an education on many different levels. I'd like to thank EVERYONE for all the opinions represented, the links and advice provided, and the passion imparted. What an interesting, lively forum I stumbled upon in my quest to address the Kindle-library book issue.

I've taken everything into consideration and will give the husband the short version tonight when he returns from work (ha! I've got the day off) as the final decision is his, obviously! If he asks my opinion (and I think he will), I will suggest we keep the Kindle (and the Kindle-related "stuff" Santa brought) and take advantage of the many legitimate resources proffered here by this wise and experienced group.

Y'all are terrific! (Can you tell I live in the South now?)

If you plan to go the 100% known legal route, then you can forget library eBooks. The only way to do it knowingly 100% legal is to get a 650 and then library eBooks can be borrowed.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

But if you keep it past the date and can still read it, that may be illegal. The thing is, if you strip the DRM and then read the library eBook, are you really going to check that you have not gone past the return date if you have not yet finished it? I doubt it.

That's the procedure with library mp3s, that's the procedure with library mobile videos. Why should it be a problem with epubs?

No one is saying that keeping them past your licensed date is OK.

Well, kindlekitten seems to be saying that it would be ok for her as long as it's for her own personal use, but most of the rest of us aren't.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

you HAVE however, managed to ignore the key issue that I repeated several times; PERSONAL USE!

No, I haven't ignored it. I've asked you, on more than one occasion, for some evidence to support your view that there is an exemption in the DMCA for personal use, but you've not come up with anything. I really would be interested to see this, because I honestly believe that you're wrong about it.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

But it is wrong (IMHO) to say for sure it is illegal when we don't actually know if it is or is not.

I agree. All I've said is that it's PROBABLY illegal, because in my reading of the DMCA I can find nothing that says that "personal use" is included in the list of permitted exemptions to the law.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by ApK

That's the procedure with library mp3s, that's the procedure with library mobile videos. Why should it be a problem with epubs?

One very significant different is that of course MP3 files have no DRM, so that if you keep them longer than the agreed loan period you're probably violating the terms of the contract between you and the library, but not breaking copyright law.