How can we convince Amazon to sell ePub format? - Page 18

K-Thom · 12-31-2010, 10:47 PM

Sony used BBeB in different variants, but supported ePub with the PRS-505.
Interestingly Bookeen began with MOBI on the Gen 1,3, later chose to support ePub as well with the Opus and relies now on ePub solely.
Pocketbook on the other hand started with FB2 and had to learn to support ePub to survive in Western Europe (my, I remember my mails to Forkosigan insisting to include DRM'd ePub ...).

If I were B&N I couldn't choose MOBI for the nook, since that would make me dependent on Amazon, which is a total No-go. So any other bookstore company with its own reading device was kind of "forced" to rely on ePub. And accept an awkward Adobe software solution.

Europe's publishers and online bookstores had to decide on what was available, and that was the Sony PRS-505 back in early 2009. Had Amazon succeeded in launching the Kinde back then, we would be up to a totally different situation today.
But they didn't. So it's ePub for Europe at the moment. Well, it was RB about 10 years ago (at least in those countries where the RocketBook was sold), so nothing is etched in stone (or display surfaces).

We actually will know where we (and the formats) are standing when Amazon is launching a German, French, Italian or Russian Kindle store. It will either be a "one market, two formats" solution or a mean, ugly fight for the upper hand (keep your popcorn ready).

CommonReader · 01-01-2011, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by K-Thom

Taken a look at the numbers of (eInk) devices sold outside Amazon country? Europe, Asia, Australia and Africa combined don't even get close to Amazon's market share.

So ePub right now (after 2 years of heavy promoting) still is ranked no. 3 behind PDF and AZW/MOBI. And ADE-DRM isn't acutally doing ePub any good. The race is far from being finished.

The sheer number of devices sold is rather meaningless as long as these sales are mostly restricted to the US and perhaps the UK.
The success of Amazon in other markets will depend on their ability to offer content in other languages, as the overwhelming majority of readers want to read books in their national languages. Right now Amazon has no or basically no content in German, Japanese and French. Spanish and Italian don't seem to be represented any better. Therefore Amazon has no real ebook presence in the largest global book markets with the exception of the US and the UK. I'm quite sure that the large publishing houses are not keen to see Amazon's dominance of the US ebook market replicated anywhere else. Therefore they will rather prefer to see the ebook markets grow steadily with epub than to surrender themselves to the control by Amazon.

Catlady · 01-01-2011, 11:17 AM

How did it transpire that libraries went with Adobe Epub instead of Amazon's format? Was that by Amazon's choice?

CommonReader · 01-01-2011, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by K-Thom

We actually will know where we (and the formats) are standing when Amazon is launching a German, French, Italian or Russian Kindle store. It will either be a "one market, two formats" solution or a mean, ugly fight for the upper hand (keep your popcorn ready).

What will Amazon do if the large publishing houses are granting licenses for ebooks as epubs only? Basically there is no one except Amazon itself interested in establishing another standard in the marketplace.

ProfCrash · 01-01-2011, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CommonReader

What will Amazon do if the large publishing houses are granting licenses for ebooks as epubs only? Basically there is no one except Amazon itself interested in establishing another standard in the marketplace.

Large publishing houses are not doing that. At least in the US they are offering both Mobi and EPub. Up until two years ago there was no real reason to offer Mobi in Europe and Asia because Amazon was not there. With the release of the International Kindle that changed. Mobi offerings in the UK drastically increased with multiple stores that were not Amazon offering books in Mobi. Once Amazon decides to open country specific stores I think the same thing will happen.

So far the only e-book store that is tied to a device not selling a major publisher is Apple and that is because Random House will not accept the Agency Pricing scheme.

CommonReader · 01-01-2011, 11:53 AM

Amazon had country specific stores in Continental Europe for years. I simply see no incentive for the large publishing houses to facilitate Amazon an entry into these markets with its own standard.

ProfCrash · 01-01-2011, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CommonReader

Amazon had country specific stores in Continental Europe for years. I simply see no incentive for the large publishing houses to facilitate Amazon an entry into these markets with its own standard.

If the Kindle in Europe grows at the rate it has in the US then the Publishing Houses would be stupid not to work with Amazon. Unless they like losing money.

But no one has answered my question, why is the onus on Amazon to change or offer both formats and not BN, Kobo, and Sony?

CommonReader · 01-01-2011, 12:09 PM

The Kindle won't grow in Europe unless Amazon has content and currently Amazon has basically none (outside of the UK). Why should the publishing houses lose money by not fattening Amazon? People will buy the paper books or get an epub book instead. The publishers certainly have no interest in seeing Amazon grab the ebook market.

ProfCrash · 01-01-2011, 12:14 PM

But it is growing in Europe. People are posting on this board about buying Kindles in Europe. There are regularly questions about which Kindle store do they use if they live in Spain or Italy or Croatia.

And the big publishing houses don't care who is selling their books as long as they make money. They never refused to sell to Borders and BN in the US even when the book stores were offering huge discounts on books. The only reason Agency Pricing hit the US and now Europe is because Apple insisted on it when it opened IBooks.

I would not be surprised to hear that the Kindle App is widely used throughout Europe. Which means that people are getting used to Kindle and the format and probably finding what most Americans have found, the Kindle works great and the books are fine.

Yes Amazon needs to add more foreign language content. I am sure they are working on that.

And we still have not had anyone say why the onus is on Amazon to sell both formats and not Sony, Kobo, and BN.

CommonReader · 01-01-2011, 12:25 PM

"Europe" is more than half a billion people. Do you seriously believe that the people who are posting here represent more than a tiny fringe, mostly people who are reading mostly English language books?
Publishers do start to care who is selling their books when they see the danger that one single bookstore may start to dominate a complete sales channel.
BTW, fixed book prices are common in major European markets. The bookstores may only sell below fixed prices if certain conditions are met.
As epub is the standard in Europe it is quite obvious that Amazon is the one who has to adapt.

Jellby · 01-01-2011, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

And we still have not had anyone say why the onus is on Amazon to sell both formats and not Sony, Kobo, and BN.

Because ePUB is a better format[*], with open specification and open future, and it's a standard of electronic publishing. Mobi is a closed format, with important limitations.

* I'm talking about the format, not the readers.

allen.gotwald · 01-01-2011, 01:01 PM

Kindle will add epub when the market demands it. With a focus on mobi, and the fact that most libraries still support mobi, there's no pressure. But libraries are now building files almost exclusively around epub to push a single format (at least locally where I am). They're doing away with lrf peculiar texts and they do offer texts in mobi. But more and more the texts are epub. When Kindle owners begin complaining they can't download library books, the pressure will rise. I have owned a 505 for 3.5 years. Before buying a Nook color this week I looked at 12 different readers. Only 2 of the 12 failed to support epub; Kindle was one, IPAD was the other.

bhartman36 · 01-01-2011, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

So why is the onus on Amazon?

Are the other companies even allowed to sell MOBI/AZW-formatted ebooks? I'm not saying that Amazon has any reason to, but if anyone's going to start selling dual formats, it's going to have to be Amazon the way things stand right now, isn't it?

KenJackson · 01-01-2011, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

I guess my biggest problem with this discussion is that the onus has been placed on Amazon to change.

...
So why is the onus on Amazon? My guess is that Borders and BN choose EPub precisely because they didn't want their customers buying from Amazon.

I've stated the problem as needing Amazon to sell EPUBs because that seems like the most likely way that non-Kindle-eReader owners like me will ever be able to be buy DRM-corrupted eBooks from Amazon. (For discussion, let us ignore the ever-present option to strip DRM.)

The only other way I can imagine is to have Sony, B&N, Borders and all the others license Amazon's AZW encryption scheme and offer firmware updates for existing readers. (How likely is that?)

Consider the advantage: Adobe Adept corruption is controlled by a third party to everyone. That is, Adobe is not owned by Sony, B&N, Borders or Amazon. So all sellers would be on a level playing field. Yet Amazon would retain total control of all access to Kindles. (They would NOT have to enable Adept on Kindles if they start selling Adept EPUBs.)

As for EPUB vs MOBI, I wouldn't be opposed to Amazon selling corrupted Mobi books in a such a way that I could read them on my Sony Reader. I just focus on EPUB because it seems to be an excellent, open and widely-used format. I still haven't read even one Mobi ebook, so I can't compare.

ProfCrash · 01-01-2011, 01:16 PM

Apple, Sony, Kobo, and BN all use a different DRM even if they use the same format.

And yes, the people on this board are a small percentage of the people buying e-readers. So if a small percentage are finding their way here to ask about the Kindle and talk about their Kindles, how many more are out there using Kindles that are not posting here.

No where have I said that the Kindle is the most popular e-reader in Europe only that it is developing and growing its presence in Europe and across the globe. A year ago I was in New Zealand and Australia. The only e-readers I saw were Kindles. The security guard who checked my bag looked at my Kindle and went "You have the first generation? Are you going to buy the second?" And New Zealand wasn't even able to buy the Kindle at that point. What does that tell you?

It says that the security guys at airports were seeing a lot of Kindles. Enough to know the differences between the models. The Air Line Attendants asked a ton of questions about my Kindle and tea. They wanted them sold in New Zealand.

Small data points but small data points that tell an interesting story.

And saying that Mobi is not as good as EPub really means nothing. If BN and Kobo wanted my business they would sell books in Mobi so I could buy from them. They are not doing that. So why should Amazon sell books in EPub when their competitors, ones who joined the game after them, chose a different format and are not selling in Mobi?

Demanding that Amazon do something that their competitors are not going to do is silly.

12-31-2010, 10:47 PM	#256
K-Thom The one and only Posts: 3,302 Karma: 535819 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Berlin, Germany Device: yup!	Sony used BBeB in different variants, but supported ePub with the PRS-505. Interestingly Bookeen began with MOBI on the Gen 1,3, later chose to support ePub as well with the Opus and relies now on ePub solely. Pocketbook on the other hand started with FB2 and had to learn to support ePub to survive in Western Europe (my, I remember my mails to Forkosigan insisting to include DRM'd ePub ...). If I were B&N I couldn't choose MOBI for the nook, since that would make me dependent on Amazon, which is a total No-go. So any other bookstore company with its own reading device was kind of "forced" to rely on ePub. And accept an awkward Adobe software solution. Europe's publishers and online bookstores had to decide on what was available, and that was the Sony PRS-505 back in early 2009. Had Amazon succeeded in launching the Kinde back then, we would be up to a totally different situation today. But they didn't. So it's ePub for Europe at the moment. Well, it was RB about 10 years ago (at least in those countries where the RocketBook was sold), so nothing is etched in stone (or display surfaces). We actually will know where we (and the formats) are standing when Amazon is launching a German, French, Italian or Russian Kindle store. It will either be a "one market, two formats" solution or a mean, ugly fight for the upper hand (keep your popcorn ready). Last edited by K-Thom; 12-31-2010 at 10:55 PM.

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01-01-2011, 11:17 AM	#258
Catlady Grand Sorcerer Posts: 7,419 Karma: 52613881 Join Date: Oct 2010 Device: Kindle Fire, Kindle Paperwhite, AGPTek Bluetooth Clip	How did it transpire that libraries went with Adobe Epub instead of Amazon's format? Was that by Amazon's choice?

01-01-2011, 11:53 AM	#261
CommonReader Fanatic Posts: 528 Karma: 2530000 Join Date: Dec 2010 Device: Sony PRS-T3, PRS-650, Vaio Tap 11, iPad Mini	Amazon had country specific stores in Continental Europe for years. I simply see no incentive for the large publishing houses to facilitate Amazon an entry into these markets with its own standard.

01-01-2011, 12:09 PM	#263
CommonReader Fanatic Posts: 528 Karma: 2530000 Join Date: Dec 2010 Device: Sony PRS-T3, PRS-650, Vaio Tap 11, iPad Mini	The Kindle won't grow in Europe unless Amazon has content and currently Amazon has basically none (outside of the UK). Why should the publishing houses lose money by not fattening Amazon? People will buy the paper books or get an epub book instead. The publishers certainly have no interest in seeing Amazon grab the ebook market.

01-01-2011, 12:14 PM	#264
ProfCrash Tea Enthusiast Posts: 8,554 Karma: 75384937 Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Somewhere in the USA Device: Kindle1, Kindle DX Graphite, K3 3G, IPad 3, PW2	But it is growing in Europe. People are posting on this board about buying Kindles in Europe. There are regularly questions about which Kindle store do they use if they live in Spain or Italy or Croatia. And the big publishing houses don't care who is selling their books as long as they make money. They never refused to sell to Borders and BN in the US even when the book stores were offering huge discounts on books. The only reason Agency Pricing hit the US and now Europe is because Apple insisted on it when it opened IBooks. I would not be surprised to hear that the Kindle App is widely used throughout Europe. Which means that people are getting used to Kindle and the format and probably finding what most Americans have found, the Kindle works great and the books are fine. Yes Amazon needs to add more foreign language content. I am sure they are working on that. And we still have not had anyone say why the onus is on Amazon to sell both formats and not Sony, Kobo, and BN.

01-01-2011, 12:25 PM	#265
CommonReader Fanatic Posts: 528 Karma: 2530000 Join Date: Dec 2010 Device: Sony PRS-T3, PRS-650, Vaio Tap 11, iPad Mini	"Europe" is more than half a billion people. Do you seriously believe that the people who are posting here represent more than a tiny fringe, mostly people who are reading mostly English language books? Publishers do start to care who is selling their books when they see the danger that one single bookstore may start to dominate a complete sales channel. BTW, fixed book prices are common in major European markets. The bookstores may only sell below fixed prices if certain conditions are met. As epub is the standard in Europe it is quite obvious that Amazon is the one who has to adapt.

01-01-2011, 01:01 PM	#267
allen.gotwald Advocate Posts: 44 Karma: 34094 Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: ohio Device: SONY PRS-505 and Nook Color	Kindle will add epub when the market demands it. With a focus on mobi, and the fact that most libraries still support mobi, there's no pressure. But libraries are now building files almost exclusively around epub to push a single format (at least locally where I am). They're doing away with lrf peculiar texts and they do offer texts in mobi. But more and more the texts are epub. When Kindle owners begin complaining they can't download library books, the pressure will rise. I have owned a 505 for 3.5 years. Before buying a Nook color this week I looked at 12 different readers. Only 2 of the 12 failed to support epub; Kindle was one, IPAD was the other.

01-01-2011, 01:16 PM	#270
ProfCrash Tea Enthusiast Posts: 8,554 Karma: 75384937 Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Somewhere in the USA Device: Kindle1, Kindle DX Graphite, K3 3G, IPad 3, PW2	Apple, Sony, Kobo, and BN all use a different DRM even if they use the same format. And yes, the people on this board are a small percentage of the people buying e-readers. So if a small percentage are finding their way here to ask about the Kindle and talk about their Kindles, how many more are out there using Kindles that are not posting here. No where have I said that the Kindle is the most popular e-reader in Europe only that it is developing and growing its presence in Europe and across the globe. A year ago I was in New Zealand and Australia. The only e-readers I saw were Kindles. The security guard who checked my bag looked at my Kindle and went "You have the first generation? Are you going to buy the second?" And New Zealand wasn't even able to buy the Kindle at that point. What does that tell you? It says that the security guys at airports were seeing a lot of Kindles. Enough to know the differences between the models. The Air Line Attendants asked a ton of questions about my Kindle and tea. They wanted them sold in New Zealand. Small data points but small data points that tell an interesting story. And saying that Mobi is not as good as EPub really means nothing. If BN and Kobo wanted my business they would sell books in Mobi so I could buy from them. They are not doing that. So why should Amazon sell books in EPub when their competitors, ones who joined the game after them, chose a different format and are not selling in Mobi? Demanding that Amazon do something that their competitors are not going to do is silly.