How can we convince Amazon to sell ePub format?

[leebase]

Originally Posted by KenJackson

The thrust of all eight pages of this thread has been a discussion by willing participants about the amazed disbelief that Amazon really doesn't want to sell us what we want to buy and of how we might convince them to sell EPUBs and how they might actually do it.

One first need to figure out how it's in AMAZON's best interest to support epub. Explain to Amazon how beneficial it is for them to give lots and lots of money to Adobe to participate with Adobe's DRM platform (you do realize that epub with an Amazon proprietary DRM would be no benefit whatsoever to the "we want epub" crowd).

Then explain to Amazon how it's to their benefit to be dependent on Adobe for feature enhancements.

Then explain to Amazon how beneficial it is to them and their reputation to have Overdrive's servers to slow down and crash during the holiday rush. How much better it is for Amazon to have to field the angry calls as to "why I can't get my book" with "Overdrive is having problems" as the only answer.

Then explain to Amazon how it's in their best interest to have their customers buying books from the competition.

All that and more is all you have to do. Should be easy.

Lee

[ProfCrash]

Catlady I agree with most of your post. I am not worried about the format wars because I know I can remove the DRM and convert my Mobi files to EPub. One of my to do items this weekend is to teach myself how to strip the DRM and start backing up my books on my hard drive. Not because I am worried but because it doesn't hurt to do it so why not start?

Amazon lost some of its market share to Nook and Kobo and IBooks but the share of the market did not seem to drop that much. Here is why I don't think they lost that much ground. When the IPad was released, e-book sales at Amazon picked up. Why? Because IPad users were using Kindle for IPad. There are already reports in the media that sales of magazines have dropped for the IPad because they are too expensive. One of the major publishers is not sold in IBooks because they didn't buy into the Agency Pricing. So IBooks is short on books and not competitive with Amazon, BN, and Kobo, heck maybe not even Sony. People reading on their IPads are reading using Apps and Amazon is getting a lot of that business.

One of the first things people who rooted their Nook Colors reported doing was downloading Kindle for Android. Why? Because they wanted to use Amazons store.

I would think that Amazons percentage of the market has gone down but since the market is growing it's ebook profit. I don't think Amazon is concerned with knocking out its competitors. The Nook has spurred Amazon to add some features but it seems to me that Amazon has targeted the IPad as its major competitor in the market. Amazon has done a bang up job of getting its apps out and advertising them. Non e-reader owners can find them easily and buy books from Amazon easily enough.

I think the very reason that people want Amazon to sell books in EPub and Mobi is because they cannot find books at the EPub book stores. I have read topics started by folks who bought a Kindle because they were having difficulty finding books for the Nook or Sony or Kobo. I have no idea what books they are looking at but it does seem to be something that is posted about frequently enough that it makes me raise an eyebrow. I would guess that the popular fiction and non fiction books are available at all the stores. I would think that the books people are having trouble finding are more niche books that Amazon has.

As the Kindle continues to build an international customer base I expect to see more bookstores over seas offering books in Mobi because they want to be able to sell to Kindle users.

I understand why people want access to Amazon. I just find the argument that Amazon is anti-free market or taking away peoples freedom to shop where they want or that people should boycott Amazon because they don't sell books in EPub to be a bit silly. As you said, you choose your device knowing about the format issues, and you are happy with your choice. I just wish others would adopt that same attitude.

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by Catlady

The point is that on the one side you have Amazon, and on the other side you have everybody else, including the public libraries. As a consumer, I've decided that it's more likely that epub will win the format wars, just as VHS won out over Betamax and Blu-ray won out over HD.

I think that the VHS/Beta issue is something that everyone should have in the back of their mind when thinking about formats. As for me, I think that epub has already lost. And that even if Amazon does go to epub, they will use their own DRM (as Apple does), meaning that their books will still likely not be readable on Sonys or Nooks.

However, unlike in the VHS/Beta days, at least there are ways of converting ones library to another format, if necessary.

[leebase]

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

However, unlike in the VHS/Beta days, at least there are ways of converting ones library to another format, if necessary.

Apple is a great example. The use ePub but their own drm and thus they are just as locked as Amazon. Apple DRM has not been cracked yet, which is why I buy my ebooks from Amazon.

Lee

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

I would think that Amazons percentage of the market has gone down but since the market is growing it's ebook profit. I don't think Amazon is concerned with knocking out its competitors. The Nook has spurred Amazon to add some features but it seems to me that Amazon has targeted the IPad as its major competitor in the market. Amazon has done a bang up job of getting its apps out and advertising them. Non e-reader owners can find them easily and buy books from Amazon easily enough.

Well, if Amazon wants to compete against iPad, it's fallen behind BN, since the Nook Color apparently does exactly that. Amazon now will have to compete against both iPad and Nook Color, not to mention all the other tablets.

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

I think the very reason that people want Amazon to sell books in EPub and Mobi is because they cannot find books at the EPub book stores. I have read topics started by folks who bought a Kindle because they were having difficulty finding books for the Nook or Sony or Kobo. I have no idea what books they are looking at but it does seem to be something that is posted about frequently enough that it makes me raise an eyebrow. I would guess that the popular fiction and non fiction books are available at all the stores. I would think that the books people are having trouble finding are more niche books that Amazon has.

I really don't know what they're looking for--I would hope that people who were really needing/wanting certain niche books would have looked for them ahead of buying a reader.

I don't know if it's true for other people, but for me, Amazon was a habit. When I first started shopping online for (physical) books, I would check both BN and Amazon, and I was generally more likely to buy from BN. Gradually that changed, largely because of Amazon's better prices. And I reached a point where I almost never looked at BN anymore. But that took years during which I developed a certain loyalty to Amazon.

Now I've broken the Amazon habit in just a few months. As I see it, Amazon turned away a loyal customer. Am I unique? I really don't think so. I think there may be many like me who were happy Amazon shoppers, who have now discovered that they can do very well without Amazon.

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

I understand why people want access to Amazon. I just find the argument that Amazon is anti-free market or taking away peoples freedom to shop where they want or that people should boycott Amazon because they don't sell books in EPub to be a bit silly. As you said, you choose your device knowing about the format issues, and you are happy with your choice. I just wish others would adopt that same attitude.

I really haven't seen that "anti-free market" argument. I think it's a straw man.

[CommonReader]

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

As for me, I think that epub has already lost.

Taken a look at the world outside of the US recently?

[screwballl]

We have seen this before, we will see this again.

VHS vs Beta
DVD vs VHS
CD vs cassette
SDTV vs HDTV
mp3 versus everything else (and later DRM versus non-DRM media)
CRT vs LCD
HD-DVD vs Bluray
IBM vs Intel (as it relates to Apple mostly)

In some cases multiple formats are allowed to coexist, such as AMD and Intel, Nvidia and ATI, OpenGL and DirectX... now granted some are hardware, some are software, but it is essentially the same one versus another. In many cases, something better comes along and replaces the older tech in time.

We are only scratching the surface with ebook formats, it will be at least another 5 years or so before we start to see one major format take a lead that all readers will have to support... which looking at the formats available nowadays, there already is one: MOBI.

[CazMar]

Originally Posted by Catlady

....

Now I've broken the Amazon habit in just a few months. As I see it, Amazon turned away a loyal customer. Am I unique? I really don't think so. I think there may be many like me who were happy Amazon shoppers, who have now discovered that they can do very well without Amazon.

....

Same here - before the Kobo I bought a lot of books from Amazon. Now I even buy my P-books from the same place I buy my epubs. I just don't bother checking Amazon's site anymore.

[K-Thom]

Taken a look at the world outside of the US recently?

Taken a look at the numbers of (eInk) devices sold outside Amazon country? Europe, Asia, Australia and Africa combined don't even get close to Amazon's market share.

So ePub right now (after 2 years of heavy promoting) still is ranked no. 3 behind PDF and AZW/MOBI. And ADE-DRM isn't acutally doing ePub any good. The race is far from being finished.

[ProfCrash]

Originally Posted by K-Thom

Taken a look at the numbers of (eInk) devices sold outside Amazon country? Europe, Asia, Australia and Africa combined don't even get close to Amazon's market share.

So ePub right now (after 2 years of heavy promoting) still is ranked no. 3 behind PDF and AZW/MOBI. And ADE-DRM isn't acutally doing ePub any good. The race is far from being finished.

I am curious as to were you get your numbers. They sound more definitive then anything that I have seen.

[K-Thom]

Have to look up the numbers, but for now:

- Sony is rumored to have sold 500.000-600.000 devices (pre PRS-350/650).
- Pocketbook says it's selling about 50.000 devices/month worldwide.
- Bookeen strived to sell 50.000 devices in the US in 2010. Don't know if they reached that goal. Expect the same numbers or less on the European market.
- Any other devices usually sell 5.000-50.000/year, if at all. If their companies aren't out of business by now, that is (the undead legion of Netronix devices).

The nook devices are left out intentionally since they aren't officially sold outside the US, and I was referring to the rest of the world.

So I wouldn't really give a second thought about ePub if I were Jeff Bezos. ePub is a format officially dominated by Adobe (InDesign, ADE) and favored by early adopting techno geeks (sorry, kids ) which are a marginal group.

Most end users don't care about the format at all. They want an up and running system.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by K-Thom

Most end users don't care about the format at all. They want an up and running system.

True enough--for their first e-reader. The problem comes in when the Kindle owners are buying a second device--perhaps the Nook Color or another tablet-type e-reader, because they'd like to have color--and discover that their Amazon-purchased books can't be read on their new gadget. That's the wake-up call.

[K-Thom]

or another tablet-type e-reader, because they'd like to have color

Ever heard of "Kindle for (place your favorite OS here)"?

Ask me if you need another definition of "nearly omnipresent".

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Catlady

True enough--for their first e-reader. The problem comes in when the Kindle owners are buying a second device--perhaps the Nook Color or another tablet-type e-reader, because they'd like to have color--and discover that their Amazon-purchased books can't be read on their new gadget. That's the wake-up call.

Or vice-versa.

[ProfCrash]

Originally Posted by Catlady

True enough--for their first e-reader. The problem comes in when the Kindle owners are buying a second device--perhaps the Nook Color or another tablet-type e-reader, because they'd like to have color--and discover that their Amazon-purchased books can't be read on their new gadget. That's the wake-up call.

Or when someone buys a Nook or Sony and adds a Kindle.

I guess my biggest problem with this discussion is that the onus has been placed on Amazon to change.

I don't know what Sony used when it first started but it was not EPub. When Amazon entered the market they choose Mobi. I think that I have read that Sony changed to EPub after the Kindle was released or just before. When BN and Kobo entered the market they could have selected a Mobi format and choose EPub even though they knew that Kindle was the largest e-reader in the US at the time. Given that Nook is made for the US market, for the time being, BN chose a format that differed from the largest e-reader in their market. Kobo is available in the US and Canada, so Borders choose a format that differed from the biggest competitor.

So why is the onus on Amazon? My guess is that Borders and BN choose EPub precisely because they didn't want their customers buying from Amazon. They are less worried about the average customer leaving their e-book store to buy books from BN or Borders but know that people shop at Amazon for many items and would go there for e-books if they could.

Yes, I know about the international market. Mobi is going to grow as the Kindle grows overseas. But that is not what BN was thinking about when it entered the market. If it was then that is because BN plans an international launch and is moving really, really slowly on that. This is allowing the Kindle to gain a bigger foothold outside the US. I have a feeling the Nook would do really well internationally, inexpensive, functions well, and EPub would be great marketing tools.

So Amazon is the problem because competitors entering the market later choose a different format then the largest seller in the markets they are targeting.