Amazon: If we released Kindle sales numbers, it would only hurt us

[Marcy]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

So because you own a Dx, does that make you too a sheeple?

I didn't buy the DX, I traded for it.

But I bought a K1 from amazon. But I didn't buy it because amazon told me how many they sold, but because I wanted an ereader and at the time (before I found mobileread) it was the only one I knew about.

Anyone who buys a Kindle because amazon says they've sold millions is a sheeple. Someone who buys a Kindle because they've looked at the alternatives and likes what amazon offers the best is an informed consumer.

-Marcy

[SensualPoet]

I've been following pretty closely and there isn't a single Amazon Kindle claim I have read in various press releases and shareholder reports that sounds "twisted" or "a lie". As Andrew H. stated, publicly traded companies simply cannot make materially misleading statements without fear of the company, and members of the board, being fined or jailed.

We do know that the Kindle does NOT represent at least 10% of revenues -- a typical threshold for "material impact". Nor do Amazon's direct Kindle competitors -- not one of them -- report device sales by unit or revenue. It is NOT in the best interest of Amazon's shareholders to reveal such useful competitive data.

It is revealing that no other ebookstore company has made the claim of selling 1 million, or even 500,000, copies of any specific author or title. Those milestones could easily be disputed by publishers if in error; and Amazon could be asked to provide a judge with proof for auditing purposes if needed.

Anyone who believes that the very slick marketing, sales and product ecosystem Amazon Kindle represents isn't leading in most markets ought to provide the case for someone else. Sony, Nook and Kobo are, in my mind, clearly well behind despite offering a clear alternative. In the end, the public will make its choices based on which product works best for them. I am very happy Kindle and Kobo user but if I absolutely had to choose, it would be an easy pick: Amazon Kindle 3.

[Marcy]

Originally Posted by Steven Lake

HA! What have I been saying for months now! The impressive sales and success that Amazon has bragged about is actually a lie! The only time you don't release numbers is when you have nothing to truly brag about. If they actually did have something to brag about, then they'd be throwing sales numbers all over the place. But in reality, they don't! I'd love to see someone sue Amazon and force them to cough up their real numbers. Because if they did and the numbers got out into the wild, I think Amazon would be quite thoroughly embarrassed.

I disagree, and not because I'm an amazon fangirl.

Based on what authors have posted in these forums they all sell many more ebooks via amazon than any other outlet, i.e. Smashwords, Kobo, Sony, etc. That seems to show a commanding lead in Kindle units over the others. The technologically advanced who can strip DRM from an amazon title and convert it to use on a non-Kindle ereader is not your typical user. Most of these sales are from people reading them on their Kindle (or a Kindle for... app).

-Marcy

[Steven Lake]

I'm not saying they don't. I never said that Amazon doesn't sell a ton of things. What I was getting at was that I would prefer that the sales came from a more distributed base of stores and locations. Choice is my biggest point here, because competition makes honest the most crooked of men. The less choices people have, the more companies are will to be greedy and evil. Amazon is a great example of that.

[Marcy]

Originally Posted by Steven Lake

I'm not saying they don't. I never said that Amazon doesn't sell a ton of things. What I was getting at was that I would prefer that the sales came from a more distributed base of stores and locations. Choice is my biggest point here, because competition makes honest the most crooked of men. The less choices people have, the more companies are will to be greedy and evil. Amazon is a great example of that.

How are they an example of greedy and evil? They have a lot of stuff at great prices. No tax. Free shipping. And they have a great system of reviews in place so I can often tell if an item is a hyped piece of crap or something worthwhile. I use amazon reviews even if I plan to buy an item elsewhere.

They are not always the cheapest and they don't carry everything you could want, but that's what google is for. The internet has got to be the most amazing set of choices ever offered to a shopper, well, ever.

Example: I wanted a case for my phone in a certain color and material. I googled the exact specifications and got pages of hits. Amazon had what I wanted at $20. I found a similar item at a place called Karen Deals, that I never had heard of, and their price was a lot lower. Outcome, I bought it there. I gave business to a small niche company that offered the best product at the best price out of over 100 choices presented to me. If that isn't the free market at it's finest I don't know what is.

-Marcy

[osnova]

Originally Posted by Steven Lake

I'm not saying they don't. I never said that Amazon doesn't sell a ton of things. What I was getting at was that I would prefer that the sales came from a more distributed base of stores and locations. Choice is my biggest point here, because competition makes honest the most crooked of men. The less choices people have, the more companies are will to be greedy and evil. Amazon is a great example of that.

Steven, people have lots of choices in the ereader market. However, it seems that most choose the Kindle platform (book sales numbers released by authors here and at kindleboards are proof, all of them indicate Amazon sales are leading by far the alternatives). I am happy that I do not fall within Marcy's definition of sheeple (look at my list of devices, which can also include the original PRS-500 that I lost a long time ago). I've tried it all and am very satisfied (actually not satisfied, excited) about my Kindle experience.

[greencat]

I might be wrong, I frequently am, but hasn't Amazon prevented unionisation amongst its employees in the past?

I liked Steven's dissection of Amazon's phrases and that rings pretty true to me.

On a personal level - Amazon have always been pretty straight up with me. Borked Kindle - I emailed and someone rang me straight away, was extremely competent and I had a new Kindle next day. Similarly as a occasional seller of secondhand stuff - always got paid. Ditto as a publisher. Unfortunately I can't point to another internet based company with the same level of service across such a range of channels. Email Google and often the query'll be lost forever. eBay/Paypal - I've actually lost a decent amount of money because of them.

Amazon certainly aren't perfect though. Secrecy is definitely one of their problems. As a publisher I found out about loaning myself by visiting a book listing. Didn't get an email from them until 8 hours later. While the geek in me loves their data driven approach - it rankles a tad that somewhere someone ran the numbers and figured it wasn't worth letting their publishers know in advance.

Their tendency to change their terms and conditions in drastic ways on the turn of a dime means I'd never rely on them as my main source of income. If you are a business owner or author depending on Amazon - you could be unemployed tomorrow with no rights or pay off. I couldn't sleep with that.

They are also part of a corporate globalisation, wealth concentration, outsourcing & automation trend which is hurting a lot of people. It's mostly small retailers and the low skilled which are affected at the moment. But Amazon et al are gradually moving up the skills ladder and I think most of us will end up poorer for it. I don't blame Amazon, in particular, for this and it's probably unavoidable but they are definitely part of it.

[Kali Yuga]

Originally Posted by Steven Lake

Honestly, I'd love to see Amazon die as the big kind of online shopping...

Good luck with that.

Originally Posted by Steven Lake

and instead have the market diversify out into lots of choices, because the more choices you have, the better things are.

It's highly unlikely that the market would explode into more minor players than already exist.

Nor is Amazon quite a massive as you may think. They're probably 1/10 the size of Walmart, for example.... Not exactly an 800 lb gorilla, except in the minds of those who don't bother to examine such things.

Originally Posted by Steven Lake

Diversity is by far better in every way than any kind of single solution could ever dream of being. Mostly because diversity allows for greater selection as large numbers of smaller stores allow for greater specialization meaning more choices.

Uh, I don't know if you noticed this, but one reason why Amazon ate B&N's lunch is because they were able to offer a far more diverse catalog directly to the public than any megastore or collection of independent bookstores. It was Amazon that recognized the value of the "long tail," and that was one factor in their rise and success.

So if you want diversity, you should actually thank Amazon for recognizing that businesses can do well when offering deep catalogs of content.

[leebase]

Originally Posted by SensualPoet

Sony, Nook and Kobo are, in my mind, clearly well behind despite offering a clear alternative. .

"In your mind" -- is kind of the point. In "my mind", Amazon is dominating the ebook business. But "our mind" isn't the same thing as "factually". I'd like to know the numbers -- to know HOW MUCH Amazon is leading by. I don't watch football and think "well, my team clearly is winning" -- I look at the SCORE.

I know how many iPads have sold because Apple has told me. I'd love to know how Kindle sales are compared to iPads. Heck, I'd love to know how many iPads Amazon has sold. I'd like to know how many books have been purchased via the Apple book store compared to Amazon, on the iPad.

There are all kinds of numbers I'd like to have because, dammit, I love to watch the technology battles and I like knowing the score.

But hey, I realize that Amazon has good reason for keeping it's numbers to itself. Apple surely isn't going to give numbers out when it's not in their best interest to do so. But when a company won't tell us the numbers, then I think we shouldn't give them any publicity attention about their sales.

"Best selling product at Amazon ever"? Who cares. That's not a real number. And I love that the Nook is now B&N's "best selling product ever" so obviously those two are equal number. As "best selling ever" must surely equal "best selling ever".

Now we need Borders to come tell us all the the Kobo is it's best selling product ever. I think every competitor to Amazon should follow EVERY Amazon press release with an exact duplicate.

THEN FINALLY, Amazon would have a reason to say "we sold 4 million kindles this year" to which B&N and everyone else would stay silent. But until Amazon does, as far as I'm concerned, their numbers are too embarrassingly small for them to tell us of.

Lee

[screwballl]

The best way to ensure you maintain a strong market presence is to limit certain information from competitors. If certain information is released that severely overshadows the competitors more than expected, other companies may massively kick up their advertising and attacks potentially causing a shift in the market, and not always for the better.

[Andrew H.]

[QUOTE=greencat;1303750]I might be wrong, I frequently am, but hasn't Amazon prevented unionisation amongst its employees in the past?
[I haven't heard about this, and a quick google check only found an article from 10 years ago, so I would suspect no. (One of the articles indicated that a union lost a ballot in a distribution center in the UK, which is not the same thing).

On a personal level - Amazon have always been pretty straight up with me. Borked Kindle - I emailed and someone rang me straight away, was extremely competent and I had a new Kindle next day. Similarly as a occasional seller of secondhand stuff - always got paid. Ditto as a publisher. Unfortunately I can't point to another internet based company with the same level of service across such a range of channels. Email Google and often the query'll be lost forever. eBay/Paypal - I've actually lost a decent amount of money because of them.

This is why they are so popular, and why claims of "evil" ring false to so many people: Amazon are just outstandingly fair to deal with as a customer: prices are good, delivery is fast and reliable, and Amazon is very quick and helpful if something goes wrong.

Amazon certainly aren't perfect though. Secrecy is definitely one of their problems. As a publisher I found out about loaning myself by visiting a book listing. Didn't get an email from them until 8 hours later. While the geek in me loves their data driven approach - it rankles a tad that somewhere someone ran the numbers and figured it wasn't worth letting their publishers know in advance.

I'm not a publisher, author, etc.; I'm a customer. And as a customer, I'm very happy with Amazon. I was also happy with their pre-Agency $9.99 pricing, even if publishers didn't like it.

Their tendency to change their terms and conditions in drastic ways on the turn of a dime means I'd never rely on them as my main source of income. If you are a business owner or author depending on Amazon - you could be unemployed tomorrow with no rights or pay off. I couldn't sleep with that.

Well, what do you do if they become your main source of income, though? Pull your books? J.A. Konrath famously reported that his Amazon books were outselling iBooks 60-1. With numbers like that, I'm not sure what you do - cut 98% of your income?

They are also part of a corporate globalisation, wealth concentration, outsourcing & automation trend which is hurting a lot of people. It's mostly small retailers and the low skilled which are affected at the moment. But Amazon et al are gradually moving up the skills ladder and I think most of us will end up poorer for it. I don't blame Amazon, in particular, for this and it's probably unavoidable but they are definitely part of it.

Hard to argue with this, although I don't see many successful companies that aren't doing this. At least indie authors don't yet have to deal with competition from Chinese writers selling books for 20c.

[greencat]

On the ethics of Amazon. I fairly quickly found this piece on their treatment of casuals:
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...cle5337770.ece

Frankly I don't know of any other company operating in the UK that penalises you for being sick with a Doctor's note. And this piece on union busting behaviour:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2006.../careers.work2

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

Well, what do you do if they become your main source of income, though? Pull your books? J.A. Konrath famously reported that his Amazon books were outselling iBooks 60-1. With numbers like that, I'm not sure what you do - cut 98% of your income?

I'm not suggesting that. I'd say keep Amazon but diversify your sources of income (and I see from his blog etc that Konrath does this). List your book in other places/other other services/sell merchandise and books from your own site.

My own solution is not to give up the day job.

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

Hard to argue with this, although I don't see many successful companies that aren't doing this. At least indie authors don't yet have to deal with competition from Chinese writers selling books for 20c.

Amazon sets a minimum price of 99c although others like Smashwords let you list for free. It's a lot way off but I think the real competition will come in 20+ years when computers become as good (if not better) than humans at producing stories with mass appeal.

[KenJackson]

Hey screwballl,

I apologize for the OT remark, but I notice the book counter in your signature says you've already read 2 books in 2011.

According to my clock, 4 hours from now it will still be 2010.
So either you are cheating or you are located at least 5 time zones east of me and are the world's fastest reader to boot.

[screwballl]

Originally Posted by KenJackson

Hey screwballl,

I apologize for the OT remark, but I notice the book counter in your signature says you've already read 2 books in 2011.

According to my clock, 4 hours from now it will still be 2010.
So either you are cheating or you are located at least 5 time zones east of me and are the world's fastest reader to boot.

Read my comment here: https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...&postcount=160

I just added a ticker to see how many I can do in a year, not part of a competition or exact dates. I finished one Wed night 29th and a shorter one last night after reading a good portion of the day.

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by greencat

On the ethics of Amazon. I fairly quickly found this piece on their treatment of casuals:
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...cle5337770.ece

Frankly I don't know of any other company operating in the UK that penalises you for being sick with a Doctor's note. And this piece on union busting behaviour:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2006.../careers.work2

Umm, you get five sick days under their scheme. Which isn't bad for workers hired for two months or so.

(I'm also a little skeptical of this argument because of the emphasis it kept putting on "heavy" x-box consoles. I have an x-box. I wouldn't really describe it as heavy).

The union bit barely mentioned Amazon and didn't seem to say much beyond the fact that management asked its workers to vote against the union.

I'm not suggesting that. I'd say keep Amazon but diversify your sources of income (and I see from his blog etc that Konrath does this). List your book in other places/other other services/sell merchandise and books from your own site.

My own solution is not to give up the day job.

Diversifying is good - my only point was that, as a practical matter, it may be hard to avoid actually having Amazon account for the vast majority of your sales.

Amazon sets a minimum price of 99c although others like Smashwords let you list for free. It's a lot way off but I think the real competition will come in 20+ years when computers become as good (if not better) than humans at producing stories with mass appeal.

Computers will never produce stories with mass appeal; they don't seem to work that way.