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Old 12-27-2010, 10:04 AM   #46
Andrew H.
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It is still copyright infringement here in the real world. And NOT theft!
Criminal copyright infringement is stealing.

It's also theft in my jurisdiction.
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Old 12-27-2010, 10:10 AM   #47
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Still rationalizing and arguing pointless abstracts. If we don't get off of this, the industry will take another decade to get anywhere.
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Old 12-27-2010, 11:03 AM   #48
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This is what I want as a consumer.

I want to be able to download books DRM free from ANY bookstore onto whatever reader I have. I want to be able to transfer those same books onto any new reader of my choice without having to do any stripping or converting.

I want a common platform for all books to make this as easy as possible for all of us.

I will not pay hard cover prices for Ebooks, I will wait for the release of the MMPB, at which time the Ebook should be released at a LOWER price than the MMPB. Depending on the price then I will decide if I want to buy it.

Right now I am seriously debating whether or not to start exploring the darknet to see how complicated and safe it is to download all of my books that I have purchased that are drm'd. I'm starting to explore getting a tablet and it seems that most of them don't accept drm'd books, but I will want them on my tablet so that leaves me to get these books free of drm.

I don't share my books whether Ebooks or paperbacks so that has never been an issue for me. But I want to be able to read my books on any hardware that I have.

It's not something that I want to do, but publishers have left me no choice in this matter.
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Old 12-27-2010, 11:18 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Steven Lyle Jordan View Post
Are you saying it's acceptable to steal, then? I, as a member of the society at large, would disagree.

I also take umbrage to the implication that I, and all content producers, treat my customers as thieves. The act of applying security to one's goods to prevent theft is NOT treating all customers as thieves. Security is designed to deter actual thieves. Non-thieves should not be inconvenienced by the existence of security, any more than is necessary to deter actual thieves.

However, I also made clear in my comment that a balance should be struck between applying security and inconveniencing customers (by which, I mean honest customers... not the thieves). Presently, digital security systems do not strike a good balance, and that needs to be fixed. However, "a good balance" doesn't mean "swing the doors open, turn your back and let the consumers do what they will." That particular sales method hasn't been successful for too many content producers, and it isn't going to get any better.

And as a content producer, I'm sick and tired of being called names and stolen from, especially when I don't even apply DRM to my products, by people who believe I'm an ogre because I understand the need for product security.
I never said once that it was ok to steal - I don't agree with it and I do not approve of theft. But I am saying that theft is a profession almost as old as prostitution – so you have to deal with it in a way that does not alienate your actual customers.

And I never called anyone names, but just as you are “sick and tired of being called names and stolen from” – I am sick and tired of being called a thief. Just as you don’t want to be lumped in a group that doesn’t fit you, neither do I. I do not know how to break DRM. DRM is NOT fairly easy to break. Of all the people I know in real life that own ebooks and ebook readers, not a single one knows how to break DRM. Most of them have no real clue what DRM means.

My mother, who I have to give step by step instructions to open her email, would NEVER EVER learn how to break DRM. All she knows is she feels like she is getting the short end of the stick when it comes to buying books now.

So, please, in the future, don’t assume that most consumers are easily circumventing DRM – that’s an assumption and completely false.
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Old 12-27-2010, 11:23 AM   #50
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Still rationalizing and arguing pointless abstracts. If we don't get off of this, the industry will take another decade to get anywhere.
This, I agree with. But it seems that the knee-jerk reaction to theft is a tightening of DRM - which punishes the legal consumer. I would love to see honest dialogue between content producers and customers regarding how to navigate these admittedly murky waters.

I have to say that I completely disagree with biometrics, however. In an age when Google can drive down the street and digitally collect private data, I can see biometrics as the opening of Pandora's Box.
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Old 12-27-2010, 11:24 AM   #51
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Well put and not just to Steve but anyone talking about, dealing with, implementing DRM. You all forget that most people are basically honest users without the knowledge, interest or ability to circumvent protections or give copies to everyone on the planet... as far as ebooks are concerned, all the majority would like to use an ereader as simply as possible... load book, open book, read book... at a reasonable price...


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So, please, in the future, don’t assume that most consumers are easily circumventing DRM – that’s an assumption and completely false.
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Old 12-27-2010, 11:32 AM   #52
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Even if they those that download his books for free never would have purchased them in the first place they are still thieves and author has every right to despise them.

What about those who sneak into a movie theater? Are they guilt free if they never would have paid to see the movie otherwise? (forget the trespassing for the moment)
How are they thieves? They are infringing copyright. That is not legally defined as theft. Ethically, the two actions are distinct enough that I think it is an abuse of language to conflate them.
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Old 12-27-2010, 12:12 PM   #53
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To make my point clearer, think of the following:

If I were to check out a library ebook in Mobipocket format, strip the DRM, convert to ePub, read the book on my nook, and then delete it before my loan was up, I would be violating the license agreement regarding my use of the ebook I downloaded. I would be infringing copyright. But I doubt a reasonable person would consider this theft, provided I deleted the files before the expiration of my loan period. Indeed, for MP3 downloads of audiobooks just this sort of honour system prevails.

Conversely, with the right combination of 'carelessly worded' licensing, ebook formats, and ereader hardware, I could keep a library book indefinitely without actually running afoul of copyright law. Yet many reasonable people would consider this a kind of theft (at the very least, 'stealing' circulation numbers from the library). Copyright infringement and theft are two different actions and need to distinguished as such in our ethical discourse just they are kept distinct legally.
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Old 12-27-2010, 12:13 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew H. View Post
Criminal copyright infringement is stealing.

It's also theft in my jurisdiction.
Criminal copyright is only for those actions done for profit, so that leaves all typical piracy in the civil area.
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Old 12-27-2010, 12:33 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by cfrizz View Post
Right now I am seriously debating whether or not to start exploring the darknet to see how complicated and safe it is to download all of my books that I have purchased that are drm'd. I'm starting to explore getting a tablet and it seems that most of them don't accept drm'd books, but I will want them on my tablet so that leaves me to get these books free of drm.
If you do, be careful! Not of getting caught, because there's almost no way you would; but of viruses, which are reportedly rife within the torrents and download sites. You could easily compromise your computer.
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Old 12-27-2010, 12:38 PM   #56
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Criminal copyright is only for those actions done for profit, so that leaves all typical piracy in the civil area.
All of which doesn't change the fact that it's wrong. Moving on.

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How are they thieves? They are infringing copyright. That is not legally defined as theft. Ethically, the two actions are distinct enough that I think it is an abuse of language to conflate them.
More pointless rationalizing... the point is that it's wrong to sneak into a movie theatre. Moving on.

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Originally Posted by MrsJoseph View Post
So, please, in the future, don’t assume that most consumers are easily circumventing DRM – that’s an assumption and completely false.
Yes, it's an assumption... and not one that I made. I said most people could, because there's effectively nothing stopping them... not that they are.
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Old 12-27-2010, 12:41 PM   #57
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All of which doesn't change the fact that it's wrong. Moving on.
Yes, and two different thing can be wrong without them being the same. So I think you missed the point.

Why is it wrong to sneak into a movie theater? Is it because it is illegal?
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Old 12-27-2010, 01:44 PM   #58
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If you do, be careful! Not of getting caught, because there's almost no way you would; but of viruses, which are reportedly rife within the torrents and download sites. You could easily compromise your computer.
This is exactly what I'm talking about! If the Fn drm wasn't on here there wouldn't be a problem! I have bought the books with my hard earned money, but unless I can find a reasonably priced tablet that ALSO accepts ADE drm I'm running the risk of either infecting my pc with a virus by getting them without it, or just stuck not being able to read them on whatever tablet I get.

This is just plain wrong!
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Old 12-27-2010, 01:47 PM   #59
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Well put and not just to Steve but anyone talking about, dealing with, implementing DRM. You all forget that most people are basically honest users without the knowledge, interest or ability to circumvent protections or give copies to everyone on the planet... as far as ebooks are concerned, all the majority would like to use an ereader as simply as possible... load book, open book, read book... at a reasonable price...
BINGO!
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Old 12-27-2010, 05:53 PM   #60
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Well put and not just to Steve but anyone talking about, dealing with, implementing DRM. You all forget that most people are basically honest users without the knowledge, interest or ability to circumvent protections or give copies to everyone on the planet... as far as ebooks are concerned, all the majority would like to use an ereader as simply as possible... load book, open book, read book... at a reasonable price...
I NEVER forget that most people would rather be honest people (usually, it's the path of least resistance, which makes it easy). However, as someone else put it, it only takes one dishonest person to spoil it for everyone else... especially with ebooks, as it takes just one dishonest person to make an ebook available to every net user on the planet, with potentially disastrous consequences. Compared to the old paradigm (one person steals one item), the ebook theft paradigm is simply too significant to be ignored by creators.
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