Buy vs license article

John F · 12-23-2010, 03:51 PM

"Would you sell your Kindle to sell a used book?"

http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2010/12/...ce=yahoo_quote

wvcherrybomb · 12-23-2010, 04:43 PM

An interesting article, thanks for posting.

For myself nothing has changed. I never bought anything with intent of resale. I have given plenty of books away to friends in the past but never sold any.

What does bother me is that we are charged as much, and sometimes more, for an eBook when we are not really buying it. If there weren't so many legal freebies offered I would feel ripped off.

With music I don't mind the cost so much as I will listen to a song many more times than I will read a book.

Doug Huffman · 12-24-2010, 06:37 AM

Yes, watch the comments. At this point seem to embrace licensing to the exclusion of ownership rights.

asjogren · 12-24-2010, 11:51 AM

Rental fits the licensing model better than purchase.

We don't own the eBooks we purchase. We only lease a few rights until the seller goes out of business, changes policies, and our devices die or get replaced.

luqmaninbmore · 12-24-2010, 12:02 PM

"On December 13th, the Supreme Court missed an opportunity to provide much-needed clarity. The Court split evenly, 4-4, in Costco Wholesale Corp. v. Omega, S.A., which left standing a lower court case that the first sale doctrine applies only to copies manufactured in the United States. While this does not finally decide the issue, it allows the lower court decision to stand, which means any copyright owner can defeat first sale rights merely by moving disc or book replication offshore."

Wait.... So does this mean it could be illegal in the US to sell a used book printed in England or Canada?

luqmaninbmore · 12-24-2010, 12:07 PM

If they want to call it a rental, then we should be charged rental prices.

Doug Huffman · 12-24-2010, 12:17 PM

The prices are rental prices, unless you know of some limitation on "rental prices." Capitalism functions properly only in an intelligent and educated (I think that means skeptical) market. No one has ever gone broke overestimating the stupidity of the market.

dacattt · 12-24-2010, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luqmaninbmore

If they want to call it a rental, then we should be charged rental prices.

But they're testing the market to see how much they can get away with, moving the bar to get their customers to pay full price for a rental, and not notice the difference.

Ah, publishers....we're noticing!!!

JSWolf · 12-24-2010, 12:45 PM

But the issue is that we don't see the license agreement before we buy. We don't accept it. We just buy. So (IMHO), we aren't specifically agreeing to the license agreement. And since we are not agreeing to it (and in some case, people may not even know it exists), then it should be null and void and because Amazon has BUY in the link to get eBooks, then I say it's a sale. Not a license or a rental, but a full fledged sale.

dacattt · 12-24-2010, 12:56 PM

The next 5 years should be interesting as more of the general public gets into e-readers... and don't pay attention. There's going to be quite a howl... but they'll still have lost books they though they bought. There was a bit of squeaking when there were enough upgrades of the iPhones that the count on Amazon upgrades maxed out. Amazon handled those by making exceptions, or resetting numbers on the 'devices used', but with their Kindles selling like hot cakes... there's an explosion coming in a few year.

Consumers tend towards being lemmings and upgrading in batches when something new becomes the 'hot' item. The wailing. probably right at Christmas will be rather loud.

Then again, the smart ones with strip them before they backup so they've actually "bought" their books. The rest are going to have to do a lot of fighting w/ Amazon (or their book store.)

RW2112 · 12-24-2010, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

But the issue is that we don't see the license agreement before we buy. We don't accept it. We just buy. So (IMHO), we aren't specifically agreeing to the license agreement. And since we are not agreeing to it (and in some case, people may not even know it exists), then it should be null and void and because Amazon has BUY in the link to get eBooks, then I say it's a sale. Not a license or a rental, but a full fledged sale.

While true you don't see the agreement every time you purchase, you did have opportunity to view said agreement when you signed up for an account in order to purchase from them. Agreement was stated when you completed the setting up of your account.

I think the way they handle it sucks hard, but never the less we agree to their terms should we choose to purchase through their service.

screwballl · 12-24-2010, 01:35 PM

Almost all digital media types have a license. They tend to fall under one of 3 primary licenses, BUT if there is NO license it tends to fall under the first:

1) Some state "you are free to do what you want with this (insert digital media here) with no restrictions", this means you can alter the music, change the ebook, change formats, change it to your own creation and sell it, whatever. This is typical Open Source licensing.

2) Others state "you are free to do what you want with this provided it stays within your possession and not sold or given away", this usually means you can convert it to a different file type/format for use on another device you own.

3) Yet others state "you can only use this in the exact format for the exact device in which you received it", this means you buy it, you "legally" cannot alter it in any way, cannot transfer it to a replacement or new device, even if it dies, meaning if your device dies, you are required to buy the same thing again. This is what most current CD and mp3 music, most ebooks and most programs you buy fall under.

taming · 12-24-2010, 01:40 PM

The License Agreement and Terms of Use is on the website and can be read before purchasing a Kindle. See this page for the Kindle WiFI License and User information.

Most people probably do not read this before purchase, but most people probably don't read the equivalent information before purchasing most things.

Doug Huffman · 12-24-2010, 01:54 PM

http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2010/12/...ce=yahoo_quote

Quote:

Originally Posted by By Seth Greenstein, contributor

The holiday season is upon us, and with it thoughts of peace on earth, goodwill... and the latest electronic media. Visions of Kindles and Kinects dance in children's heads (and no doubt yours as well), and iTunes store cards invitingly peek from stocking tops. But as consumers embrace digital media, businesses and courts grapple with a question that has proved as elusive as it is essential: when you "buy" an e-book, an MP3, or a downloaded TV show or movie, what do you really "own"?

Sydney's Mom · 12-24-2010, 02:01 PM

Very interesting - thanks for posting. The implications on pricing are enormous. I agree that a minimal price makes sense for a license - just like redbox charges $1 a day, maybe $1 for 3 days (normal time it takes to read a book?) would be appropriate.

12-23-2010, 03:51 PM	#1
John F Grand Sorcerer Posts: 7,942 Karma: 70766125 Join Date: Feb 2009 Device: Kobo Clara 2E	Buy vs license article "Would you sell your Kindle to sell a used book?" http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2010/12/...ce=yahoo_quote

12-24-2010, 02:01 PM	#15
Sydney's Mom Wizard Posts: 2,899 Karma: 6995721 Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Idaho, on the side of a mountain Device: Kindle Oasis, Fire 3d Gen and 5th Gen and Samsung Tab S	Very interesting - thanks for posting. The implications on pricing are enormous. I agree that a minimal price makes sense for a license - just like redbox charges $1 a day, maybe $1 for 3 days (normal time it takes to read a book?) would be appropriate. Last edited by Sydney's Mom; 12-24-2010 at 09:10 PM.

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12-23-2010, 04:43 PM	#2
wvcherrybomb Sharp Shootin' Grandma Posts: 847 Karma: 1123940 Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Sunny Florida Device: Kindle 3, Kindle Fire, Literati (has been adopted by my daughter)	An interesting article, thanks for posting. For myself nothing has changed. I never bought anything with intent of resale. I have given plenty of books away to friends in the past but never sold any. What does bother me is that we are charged as much, and sometimes more, for an eBook when we are not really buying it. If there weren't so many legal freebies offered I would feel ripped off. With music I don't mind the cost so much as I will listen to a song many more times than I will read a book.

12-24-2010, 06:37 AM	#3
Doug Huffman Banned Posts: 102 Karma: 7860 Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Washington Island, across Death's Door, Wisconsin, USA Device: KINDLE 3 WiFi	Yes, watch the comments. At this point seem to embrace licensing to the exclusion of ownership rights.

12-24-2010, 11:51 AM	#4
asjogren Addict Posts: 266 Karma: 1378 Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Seattle / San Carlos, Sonora, Mexico Device: Kindle & WiFi Nook & PocketBook IQ	Rental fits the licensing model better than purchase. We don't own the eBooks we purchase. We only lease a few rights until the seller goes out of business, changes policies, and our devices die or get replaced.

12-24-2010, 12:02 PM	#5
luqmaninbmore Da'i Posts: 1,144 Karma: 1217499 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Baltimore Device: Toshiba Thrive, Kobo Touch, Kindle 1, Aluratek Libre, T-Mobile Comet	"On December 13th, the Supreme Court missed an opportunity to provide much-needed clarity. The Court split evenly, 4-4, in Costco Wholesale Corp. v. Omega, S.A., which left standing a lower court case that the first sale doctrine applies only to copies manufactured in the United States. While this does not finally decide the issue, it allows the lower court decision to stand, which means any copyright owner can defeat first sale rights merely by moving disc or book replication offshore." Wait.... So does this mean it could be illegal in the US to sell a used book printed in England or Canada?

12-24-2010, 12:07 PM	#6
luqmaninbmore Da'i Posts: 1,144 Karma: 1217499 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Baltimore Device: Toshiba Thrive, Kobo Touch, Kindle 1, Aluratek Libre, T-Mobile Comet	If they want to call it a rental, then we should be charged rental prices.

12-24-2010, 12:17 PM	#7
Doug Huffman Banned Posts: 102 Karma: 7860 Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Washington Island, across Death's Door, Wisconsin, USA Device: KINDLE 3 WiFi	The prices are rental prices, unless you know of some limitation on "rental prices." Capitalism functions properly only in an intelligent and educated (I think that means skeptical) market. No one has ever gone broke overestimating the stupidity of the market.

12-24-2010, 12:45 PM	#9
JSWolf Resident Curmudgeon Posts: 79,758 Karma: 145864619 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3	But the issue is that we don't see the license agreement before we buy. We don't accept it. We just buy. So (IMHO), we aren't specifically agreeing to the license agreement. And since we are not agreeing to it (and in some case, people may not even know it exists), then it should be null and void and because Amazon has BUY in the link to get eBooks, then I say it's a sale. Not a license or a rental, but a full fledged sale.

12-24-2010, 12:56 PM	#10
dacattt Connoisseur Posts: 51 Karma: 3102 Join Date: May 2010 Location: Los Angeles Device: Astak 6 EZ Reader Plus	The next 5 years should be interesting as more of the general public gets into e-readers... and don't pay attention. There's going to be quite a howl... but they'll still have lost books they though they bought. There was a bit of squeaking when there were enough upgrades of the iPhones that the count on Amazon upgrades maxed out. Amazon handled those by making exceptions, or resetting numbers on the 'devices used', but with their Kindles selling like hot cakes... there's an explosion coming in a few year. Consumers tend towards being lemmings and upgrading in batches when something new becomes the 'hot' item. The wailing. probably right at Christmas will be rather loud. Then again, the smart ones with strip them before they backup so they've actually "bought" their books. The rest are going to have to do a lot of fighting w/ Amazon (or their book store.)

12-24-2010, 01:35 PM	#12
screwballl NewKindler Posts: 504 Karma: 1865773 Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: NWFL Device: Kindle3 Wifi	Almost all digital media types have a license. They tend to fall under one of 3 primary licenses, BUT if there is NO license it tends to fall under the first: 1) Some state "you are free to do what you want with this (insert digital media here) with no restrictions", this means you can alter the music, change the ebook, change formats, change it to your own creation and sell it, whatever. This is typical Open Source licensing. 2) Others state "you are free to do what you want with this provided it stays within your possession and not sold or given away", this usually means you can convert it to a different file type/format for use on another device you own. 3) Yet others state "you can only use this in the exact format for the exact device in which you received it", this means you buy it, you "legally" cannot alter it in any way, cannot transfer it to a replacement or new device, even if it dies, meaning if your device dies, you are required to buy the same thing again. This is what most current CD and mp3 music, most ebooks and most programs you buy fall under.

12-24-2010, 01:40 PM	#13
taming Trying for calm & polite Posts: 4,012 Karma: 9455193 Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mostly in Canada Device: kobo original, WiFI, Touch, Glo, and Aura	The License Agreement and Terms of Use is on the website and can be read before purchasing a Kindle. See this page for the Kindle WiFI License and User information. Most people probably do not read this before purchase, but most people probably don't read the equivalent information before purchasing most things.