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Old 12-24-2010, 06:16 AM   #721
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If the book had been about how children and their parents can protect themselves from abduction and rape, I would speak out for the book. Even over objections by gvernment officials.

But it isn't, it is how to kidnap and rape children. This book has no other purpose.

This book being shutdown won't stop me from reading books that don't tell how to do such things. The person who wrote this garbage book should be thrown into prison, preferably via catapault.

The book is indefensable.

If someone feels stopping this book destroys their freedom of speech, then by all means, continue to defend it. I am not stopping anyone.

But I'm leaving this conversation as it is making me ill.
Emotional appeal.
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Old 12-24-2010, 06:19 AM   #722
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Apparently topics such as paedophilia aren't considered to be controversial enough, but politics and religion are.
There are numerous analogies to that in the real world. For example, there can be any amount of blood, guts and dismembered bodies in PG-13 certified movie, but if it contains a single breast (as long as it is not chicken breasts, yummy), it will be classified as unsuitable for children. I guess that nazis are considered to be even worse than woman breast.
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Old 12-24-2010, 06:27 AM   #723
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There are numerous analogies to that in the real world. For example, there can be any amount of blood, guts and dismembered bodies in PG-13 certified movie, but if it contains a single breast (as long as it is not chicken breasts, yummy), it will be classified as unsuitable for children. I guess that nazis are considered to be even worse than woman breast.
Yep. When I worked in TV, the adage was "You can chop off a breast in prime time, but you can't kiss it."
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Old 12-24-2010, 06:41 AM   #724
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Yep. When I worked in TV, the adage was "You can chop off a breast in prime time, but you can't kiss it."
Weird, they seem to prefer BDSM over the common sex.
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Old 12-24-2010, 06:47 AM   #725
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You need to PM a moderator and tell them that you want to participate in the forum.


See:
https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=103942

Well sort of....per that link:

For anyone who is genuinely interested in discussing politics and religion, we've set in place a special usergroup ('Hardened Debaters').

Joining this usergroup means you wish to access our new Politics and Religion forum section and that you agree that you can handle the discussions that take place there in a mature and respectable manner. It goes without saying that our guidelines in terms of discussing things politely still apply.

So, if you're for these types of discussions, go to Group Memberships in your control panel and click on "Join Group" to join the "Hardened Debaters" group. That's all there's to it, you should now be able to see the Politics and Religion discussion forum on the main forum index. Leave the group at any time if you want to opt out again.
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Old 12-24-2010, 07:03 AM   #726
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So, if you're for these types of discussions, go to Group Memberships in your control panel and click on "Join Group" to join the "Hardened Debaters" group. That's all there's to it, you should now be able to see the Politics and Religion discussion forum on the main forum index. Leave the group at any time if you want to opt out again.[/I]
Thanks for setting that straight.

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Old 12-24-2010, 07:20 AM   #727
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Thanks for setting that straight.

'sokay...jus' fiddly details...

I can never remember or find that post of Alex's....
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Old 12-24-2010, 07:21 AM   #728
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'sokay...jus' fiddly details...

I can never remember or find that post of Alex's....
And I can find the post, but not be bothered to read it.
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Old 12-24-2010, 10:44 AM   #729
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thanks for the info, kennyc
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Old 12-24-2010, 11:29 AM   #730
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thanks for the info, kennyc
Hey One more post at you're at 100!!!!

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Old 12-24-2010, 11:30 AM   #731
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Hey One more post at you're at 100!!!!

LOL, says the bloke with more than 16k!
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Old 12-24-2010, 11:38 AM   #732
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LOL, says the bloke with more than 16k!
Shhh!

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Old 12-24-2010, 12:22 PM   #733
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Eh, just to be clear, worldwalker, I disagreed with the bloke trying to ban any reference to Nazis or in this case, ban any references that anyone "came for the Jews".

In other words, I agreed with the example, and I have argued what you just argued, only not in so many words, lol.
I find your attempt to imply that I am a Shoah denier distasteful in the extreme. I make sure my students know full well the depths to which the Jewish people have been persecuted (I teach Social Studies) and I do everything I can to root out prejudice and bigotry and get them to challenge their biases (and my biases, for that matter). Being very much on the Left, I myself have a bit of existential dread when contemplating how "They came for the Communists," given the extreme Right turn this country is currently experiencing. I certainly have no desire to cover up anyone's crimes. My point, which I have made several times at this point, is that the tendency to constantly invoke the Nazis whenever one discusses disturbing political trends betrays a lack of the imaginations and of historical consciousness. At this point, I don't think further discussion on this matter will advance the current debate, so I respectfully retract my comments as being needlessly divisive. Can we focus on the matter at hand, which is the attempt by a grand-standing Florida Sheriff to potentially hold all US authors accountable to the odd and obscure obscenity laws of Florida? Or perhaps the more general philosophical topic of the untenability of "thought crimes?"

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Old 12-24-2010, 02:01 PM   #734
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I believe that this debate will be advanced by clearing up a conceptual confussion that has been implied but not clearly stated thus far. This is a confusion between the legal and the ethical. The pro-censorship party is especially prone to this. We should all be able to agree that not everything that is unethical should be illegal. Insulting someone's mother, for example, while not illegal (at least in the US), is something that, as civilized people, we can agree is unethical. We can reach this agreement by appealing to one or more of the ethical systems that our civilization is heir to: consequentialism, deontological ethics, virtue theory, etc. All things being equal, the state of affairs in the universe will be worse if I insult the mother of person X than if I refrain from doing so. By insulting person X's mother, I am not regarding them as an end in themselves, but as a means to the gratification of my own anger and frustration (or desire to amuse myself). I am also using X's mother as a means to insult her/him. The habit of insulting other human beings in such a visceral way is not conducive to virtue; it does create conditions necessary for human flourishing. Insulting someone's mother is clearly unethical. But why shouldn't it be illegal? Because the consequences of enforcing such legislation would be such that enacting such a law would lead to a worse state of affairs than allowing the status quo to continue. For this reason, the book in question should not be banned.

I argue that distributing the book in question is immoral. If it is at all effective in its purpose as a guide, the state of affairs in the world would be worse then if it were not distributed. The very premise of the book is predicated on treating children as means to the gratification of the Paedophile, not means in themselves. True, if the reports we have received are accurate, it does argue that children are able to consent to the acts described in the book. This, for reasons which it would be off topic to discuss here, is not tenable, however. To commit these acts without consent is to treat someone as an end not a means. Clearly, these acts are not conducive to human flourishing; there have been many comments about the mental status of the author.

If distributing the book is unethical, shouldn't it be illegaL? No, for the same reason that insulting someone's mother should not be illegal. The consequences of a law or legal principle allowing this book to be banned would thoroughly negative; it would lead to a worse state of affairs than if the status quo continued. This is because there is no clear legal principle which would allow this work to be banned while still safeguarding other works that, all things considered, ought not to be banned. The consequences would lead not only to the banning of worthwhile works but would create a chilling effect that seriously injure the health and vitality of our culture. The very real experience of repression that would result, when added to the legalized persecution of offending offers, would create a state of affairs considerably worse than the status quo. This work, therefor, should not be banned.

The position that we have no right to "force our morality on others" is untenable. Every society has laws or, at the very least, rules which ought to reflect the views of that society regarding ethically acceptable behavior, although, in practice, they reflect the power relationships (social, economic, sexual) in that soicety. These laws evolve and change according to the principles of ethical deliberation acceptable to that community. Consequentialism, because it is concerned with aggregate well being, is the major ethical framework appealed to in the process of legislation, with Divine Command theory comming a significant second. The recognition that a system of ordered liberty, the vision of Enlightenment thinkers, does not equal a moral free-for-all in no way detracts from the argument against censorship. It strengthens it by providing a theoretical grounding necessary for making a cogent case.
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Old 12-24-2010, 02:06 PM   #735
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My point, which I have made several times at this point, is that the tendency to constantly invoke the Nazis whenever one discusses disturbing political trends betrays a lack of the imaginations and of historical consciousness.
Nobody constantly invoked Nazis except for you. The quote was posted not because it is related with Nazis in some way, but because it is relevant to the topic.
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