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Old 12-23-2010, 07:56 PM   #61
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Perhaps even badly written?

You are absolutely correct, seeing the responses here I can see that people have take "bad writing" to mean all sorts of things. I was trying to be all-inclusive. Not just grammar or plot or character but the end-result, how did the story reach the reader. I don't think it's practical to assess the quality of a novel or it's writing based on isolated criteria. The writer has to balance all the aspects to try and obtain a result. Some writers use lots of description, some almost none. Some have very complex plots, some almost none. Some go to great lengths to achieve realism, some leave lots of holes. The final result works for some readers and not for others - and (it seems to me) these latter tend to get offended and accuse the writer of poor writing.
I see many posts from readers saying that they've managed to enjoy books despite poor writing. I'm such a reader. I don't see people being "offended" by poor writing.

You do seem offended by others' opinions about certain books, though. I think that's your issue, and you're unlikely to convince people that popularity means a book can't be badly written. Opinions are just that. Yours is just as subjective as everyone else's.
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Old 12-23-2010, 08:10 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by gmw View Post
Perhaps even badly written?

You are absolutely correct, seeing the responses here I can see that people have take "bad writing" to mean all sorts of things. I was trying to be all-inclusive. Not just grammar or plot or character but the end-result, how did the story reach the reader. I don't think it's practical to assess the quality of a novel or it's writing based on isolated criteria. The writer has to balance all the aspects to try and obtain a result. Some writers use lots of description, some almost none. Some have very complex plots, some almost none. Some go to great lengths to achieve realism, some leave lots of holes. The final result works for some readers and not for others - and (it seems to me) these latter tend to get offended and accuse the writer of poor writing.
I agree with you when you say that there's a lot more to the experience of reading a book than just the quality of writing, and yes authors do have to balance things like character, action, and description.

Having said that, and putting my professional writer's hat on, when I talk about poor writing I'm talking more about how a technique is applied than what technique an author chooses to use.

Take description for example. I don't worry about whether a writer uses a lot or a little, but whether they use it well, and also whether they use the right amount for the story they're telling. Good description illuminates character as much as setting. Bad description bores the reader - regardless of the amount.

Do they use direct discourse and grounding details to draw the reader in close to the character in emotional moments, or do they use indirect discourse and irrelevant details that distances the reader from the character at just the wrong time. Do they use technique deliberately, looking for specific effects, or does their focus wander?

A book can be enjoyable even if the writing is poor, but poor writing is not simply a matter of taste. There's a craft to writing, and not all writers have mastered that craft, even when they've mastered other aspects of storytelling and are selling books on the strength of what they're good at.
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Old 12-23-2010, 08:12 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Maggie Leung View Post
I see many posts from readers saying that they've managed to enjoy books despite poor writing. I'm such a reader. I don't see people being "offended" by poor writing.

You do seem offended by others' opinions about certain books, though. I think that's your issue, and you're unlikely to convince people that popularity means a book can't be badly written. Opinions are just that. Yours is just as subjective as everyone else's.
Offended by others' opinions? No. By opinions expressed as fact ... well, yes, I guess so. A serious question regarding my understanding: I read this "managed to enjoy books despite poor writing" as meaning that the person believes the book had poor writing (fact), but they enjoyed it anyway (opinion). Is my understanding incorrect?
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Old 12-23-2010, 08:17 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by gmw View Post
Offended by others' opinions? No. By opinions expressed as fact ... well, yes, I guess so. A serious question regarding my understanding: I read this "managed to enjoy books despite poor writing" as meaning that the person believes the book had poor writing (fact), but they enjoyed it anyway (opinion). Is my understanding incorrect?
Yes, it appears your understanding is incorrect. Writing is an art, not a science. Even people who spend their lives editing and/or writing can disagree about what's good writing. People can come to majority opinions, but they're still opinions.
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Old 12-23-2010, 08:35 PM   #65
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Yes, it appears your understanding is incorrect. Writing is an art, not a science. Even people who spend their lives editing and/or writing can disagree about what's good writing. People can come to majority opinions, but they're still opinions.
Thanks. I certainly agree that writing is an art not a science. It does seem that I should stop reading too much into what people say.
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Old 12-23-2010, 09:40 PM   #66
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Count me among those who believe that bad writing/good writing has nothing to do with popularity. Plenty of books are popular but not especially good writing. It's the same with TV shows, movies, visual arts, music, you name it.

Sometimes it's because of strong marketing, sometimes it's because people want something more base.

Conversely, good art can be unpopular because it's misunderstood, too "high" or just unknown.
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Old 12-23-2010, 09:49 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Penforhire View Post
Dan Brown is the poster child for this. I mostly enjoy his books but I have to overlook endless heinous writing issues that were noted in the other Dan Brown thread. His books would not be worse if they were written better. They would be, um, better. I'm not talking about using words that John Q Public won't follow so the books would be just as popular, if not more so.

So I disagree with the OP's premise. Yes, a popular book can be poorly written. Language (English) evolves. I get that. But at any particular time there is an acceptable standard that should be maintained unless you are actively bucking the standard, such as Cormac McCarthy. Dan Brown isn't blazing new trails. He is lazy.
Groan -Dan Brown novels are so awful! This is one case where the movies were much better, at least they were only light adventure stories and we didn't have to sit through the dreadful hack writing. The novels by Douglas Preston and Lincoln Child are in a similar genre but they seem to hold the readers' interest to the end. I don't mind thrilling adventure/spooky stories for light read, but the writing shouldn't distract from the story.
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Old 12-24-2010, 12:00 AM   #68
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Laurell K. Hamilton's "Incubus Dreams" - a popular novel that makes the reader want to claw out their eyes, throw the book against a wall, and run screaming from the room.
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Old 12-24-2010, 12:34 AM   #69
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"Groan -Dan Brown novels are so awful!"

As soon as I saw this topic the first words to pop into my head were "Dan Brown". I fell for the hype surrounding The "Da Vinci Code" and, well, that's a day I'll never get back. Luckily it was a fast read.
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Old 12-24-2010, 04:29 AM   #70
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One of my friends who was an English Lit major used to say as much as she loved the Harry Potter books, the grammatical and punctional mistakes used to drive her bonkers.
I've never read them so I can't comment.
I have heard, many times, people say that technically, HP books are poorly written, so I guess that proves the point. The answer to the thread is 'yes'!
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Old 12-24-2010, 05:03 AM   #71
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Count me among those who believe that bad writing/good writing has nothing to do with popularity. Plenty of books are popular but not especially good writing.
"Popular" is rarely a sign of quality. Quite the contrary in fact, at least when it's popular with the general population. Popular things, be it movies, music, products, choices of holiday places or anything else, have a very high likelihood of being crap.

But it's also possible to consider what group of people something is popular with: if someone on this board says a book is good and I should read it, considering the quality of the discussions here, I'd certainly take the advice. On the other hand, when my neighbor, who's the archetypal noisy, militantly uneducated, viral Youtube video-loving, mindlessly mass consuming, car tuning enthusiast is totally enthralled by Harry Potter and urges me to read it, I'll be sure to skip that particular purchase at all costs.
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Old 12-24-2010, 05:10 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Fastolfe View Post
"Popular" is rarely a sign of quality. Quite the contrary in fact, at least when it's popular with the general population. Popular things, be it movies, music, products, choices of holiday places or anything else, have a very high likelihood of being crap.

But it's also possible to consider what group of people something is popular with: if someone on this board says a book is good and I should read it, considering the quality of the discussions here, I'd certainly take the advice. On the other hand, when my neighbor, who's the archetypal noisy, militantly uneducated, viral Youtube video-loving, mindlessly mass consuming, car tuning enthusiast is totally enthralled by Harry Potter and urges me to read it, I'll be sure to skip that particular purchase at all costs.
I love the Harry Potter books. Nobody could claim that they are great literature, but it's a cracking good read.
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Old 12-24-2010, 05:21 AM   #73
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Old 12-24-2010, 05:27 AM   #74
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I love the Harry Potter books. Nobody could claim that they are great literature, but it's a cracking good read.
I should point out something: what I meant was that, mediocre people tend to like mediocre things, and as a general rule, if I avoid what mediocre people like, I avoid bad purchases and disappointments. However, it's just a general rule and there are exceptions: sometimes mediocre people like quality things and vice versa.

That is to say, I didn't mean to offend whoever likes Harry Potter by my comment. It's just that, so many idiots seem to find it good that I can't believe it could actually *be* good. Maybe I should give it a whirl, but I have so many great books I'm dying to start reading lined up on my (virtual) shelf that I'd sooner start reading those before HP.

So many books, so little time eh
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Old 12-24-2010, 05:31 AM   #75
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I should point out something: what I meant was that, mediocre people tend to like mediocre things, and as a general rule, if I avoid what mediocre people like, I avoid bad purchases and disappointments. However, it's just a general rule and there are exceptions: sometimes mediocre people like quality things and vice versa.

That is to say, I didn't mean to offend whoever likes Harry Potter by my comment. It's just that, so many idiots seem to find it good that I can't believe it could actually *be* good. Maybe I should give it a whirl, but I have so many great books I'm dying to start reading lined up on my (virtual) shelf that I'd sooner start reading those before HP.

So many books, so little time eh
No offence taken. I do think, though, that by deliberately avoiding what is "popular" you're perhaps missing out on some good stuff. "Popular" certainly doesn't always equate to "good", but neither does it automatically equate to "bad". As I say, I think personally that the HP books are a wonderful story (and it really just one long story, split over 7 books).
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