Nook 1.5 or Kindle 3?

[Kitabi]

Originally Posted by jocampo

Here we go again ...

I am tired of repeat to "anti Kindle" folks, that Amazon customers are not tied up to Amazon bookstore. That is just a perception and have spread all over the internet. We can buy for several other MOBI stores without converting anything. I have no issues with other users and if they are having a nice experience with their readers or not, but saying we are locked out it is simple untrue. I do have prc, azw, mobi, converted ePUb, you name it, everything on my Kindle 3.

1. I am not anti-Kindle. I am anti proprietary format which harms customers in the long run.

2. I know the whole argument about Kindle owners not being locked in. The fact of the matter is that the stores you are mentioning are niche stores. Kindle owners cannot buy any book from any store and read it on their Kindles AS IS. The same is not true of EPUB as I have explained before.

Amazon will release lending features in a few months/weeks.

But the FACT is it does not have the feature NOW. I thought that was what that mattered.

Amazon is the #1 online retailer in USA and the world. They revealed the gross numbers for their income, not number of books sold, and you measure the success and profitability of a company according to gross and net income. For 2010, the Kindle 3 has sold 6 million of units, followed by B&N with 2 million. There is no other ereader surpassing those sales numbers now.

1. In the absence of the total number of ereaders out there, claims of 80% market share that have been made on this thread are unverifiable.

2. Could you point me to news links for the Amazon numbers - both the revenue and the units sold.

Meanwhile B&N is struggling to stay alive and its bankruptcy is closer. They are in conversations to join/buy Borders because they both, separate, have not being making any profit recently.

Ahhh, the FUD campaign rears its head. B&N would, of course, go through painful readjustment as it closes its stores but its ebook business is healthy. There are, several ways out of this and bankruptcy is not quite the certainty you are making it out to be.

Second, it is the hedge fund that owns a chunk of Borders that is trying to buy B&N and merge it with Borders in order to salvage its investment. Again, a merger is hardly a lock at this time.

Finally, even if B&N goes bankrupt, customers would not lose access to their content as long as Adobe still builds in that DRM. The content will be transferable to Sony or Kobo readers. This would hardly be the case if Amazon were to land up in trouble.

[ApK]

So the officially announced lending feature on Kindle doesn't count, but B&N's supposed future change to ADEPT DRM will somehow protect people's investment in the proprietary DRM books they buy today?

Interesting double standard there.

[Care]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

If Amazon has 75% of the e book market in the US then all of the other bookstores in the US cannot match Amazons sales. Given that most of the articles I have read put Amazon at the 75% mark, if not higher, it is safe to say that E Pub sales are less then 25% of the market. Why less? BEcause there are bookstores where you can buy Non-DRMed Mobi books to load onto Kindles and I know people who do just that.

75%. I never would have thought that. Is that in the US? Because I don't even know one single person in real life (here in Canada) that has a Kindle. Most people have Sonys or Kobos. I even know people with Nooks. I am not saying it's not true, I am just shocked that it could be that high.

[Care]

Actually, it shouldn't matter anyway. I wouldn't encourage somebody to buy a reader based on volumes sold. This reminds me of the Apple (iPod, iPhone, iPad) against the rest debate. Why is it such a big deal? Why does everybody get so defensive if somebody doesn't like their reader (for whatever reason, if they think amazon is a prison, who cares? If somebody thinks B&N sucks and doesn't offer enough selection, who cares?)??? This whole thread has become one big argument. Some people come in and try to avoid the debates and give thoughtful insight, then it's back to bickering as usual. I am not completely innocent myself. I understand the need to explain yourself if you don't agree with something, but there comes a point when we need to learn to let it go. The original poster has probably be scared away.

Sorry for the rant.

[Kitabi]

Originally Posted by ApK

So the officially announced lending feature on Kindle doesn't count, but B&N's supposed future change to ADEPT DRM will somehow protect people's investment in the proprietary DRM books they buy today?

Interesting double standard there.

The double standard charge belongs elsewhere if you read the thread carefully. I count both as "future developments for those interested and patient enough".

[ProfCrash]

Originally Posted by Care

75%. I never would have thought that. Is that in the US? Because I don't even know one single person in real life (here in Canada) that has a Kindle. Most people have Sonys or Kobos. I even know people with Nooks. I am not saying it's not true, I am just shocked that it could be that high.

Why? I would guess that most Americans had not really heard of many of the early e-readers. The first major e-reader was the Sony. Sony's have always been priced pretty high and the Sony bookstore was seriously lacking for many years. So the Sony was not economically feasible and the availability of books was limited.

The K1 was out long before the Nook. I believe that the K2 was out before the Nook. Amazon got a nice jump on everyone with its bookstore. With Oprah naming the Kindle one of her favorite things and providing a $50 off coupon, Kindle sales took off. Then the K2 was released and the price was dropped. The K2 sold out pretty quickly. Soon after the Kindle Apps started being released.

So before the Kindle there were EPub readers that only a small percentage of the population knew about and that were really expensive. When Amazon entered the market they brought a small, but larger then the competition and growing, ebook store. The price drop and availability of Apps made the Kindle itself more inticing and the books available to people who did not have a Kindle.

Nook entered the picture late in the game and the Barnes and Noble book store was not as good as Amazons. Essentially, Amazon hit the market second but was the first heavily marketed and pushed ereader. Amazon made its books available to non Kindle owners before others did. So Amazon benefited with a larger share of the US market.

The international Kindle is going to change the numbers of Mobi vs EPub offerings in a short amount of time.

I don't think Amazon got to where it is in the ebook and ereader arena because its product is vastly superior to other products. I think Amazon got there by taking advantage of a gap, marketing the hell out of its product, and releasing new ways of using its product before others did.

[jocampo]

Originally Posted by Kitabi

I know the whole argument about Kindle owners not being locked in. The fact of the matter is that the stores you are mentioning are niche stores.

Opinion here. What could be a niche store for you, it could not be for me. So this is not a fact, it is your opinion.

Originally Posted by Kitabi

Kindle owners cannot buy any book from any store and read it on their Kindles AS IS. The same is not true of EPUB as I have explained before.

This is not correct. Sir, I am telling you, I have MOBI books, "as is", that I bought from others bookstores and I am able to read those on my Kindle! Please! Get the facts or check online. There are lot of bookstores where you can download books in mobi format for your Kindle.

Originally Posted by Kitabi

Ahhh, the FUD campaign rears its head. B&N would, of course, go through painful readjustment as it closes its stores but its ebook business is healthy. There are, several ways out of this and bankruptcy is not quite the certainty you are making it out to be.

Really? how ... ... the CEO and B&N directors, don' know how ...please take a look, taken from http://www.investmentu.com/2010/Augu...-book-war.html:

Barnes & Noble, Inc. (NYSE: BKS) – the largest bookstore chain in the United States – is in trouble. So much trouble that it’s decided to put itself up for sale.
The bookseller, whose stock recently dropped to a 10-year low, is hoping for a takeover bid as it tries to gain a foothold in the growing e-reader market...

...Founder and Chairman Leonard Riggio announced that he’s considering purchasing the company himself, with a view to taking it private

Originally Posted by Kitabi

Finally, even if B&N goes bankrupt, customers would not lose access to their content as long as Adobe still builds in that DRM.

B&N ePub has it's own DRM scheme, at least today. If the site is closed or something happen, still you can download your books locally but you will have to break the DRM protection to "release" your ePub file or book. So it gives you a false sense of freedom; not because is ePub, is universal and swappable between devices, the main issue is the DRM protection which of course, is implemented on Kindles too.

I think we agree in something and is that DRM protection is affecting the end user. But book's availability or being tied up to a device is strictly dependent of the books you like and read, more a user's preference than something related to the book's format itself. I actually don't read ePub books from public libraries or Google, I don't need those and the format is horrible, with missing TOC. Like me, there are similar users and that does not limit us at all.

[boswd]

Originally Posted by jocampo

Opinion here. What could be a niche store for you, it could not be for me. So this is not a fact, it is your opinion.




This is not correct. Sir, I am telling you, I have MOBI books, "as is", that I bought from others bookstores and I am able to read those on my Kindle! Please! Get the facts or check online. There are lot of bookstores where you can download books in mobi format for your Kindle.




Really? how ... ... the CEO and B&N directors, don' know how ...please take a look, taken from http://www.investmentu.com/2010/Augu...-book-war.html:






B&N ePub has it's own DRM scheme, at least today. If the site is closed or something happen, still you can download your books locally but you will have to break the DRM protection to "release" your ePub file or book. So it gives you a false sense of freedom; not because is ePub, is universal and swappable between devices, the main issue is the DRM protection which of course, is implemented on Kindles too.

I think we agree in something and is that DRM protection is affecting the end user. But book's availability or being tied up to a device is strictly dependent of the books you like and read, more a user's preference than something related to the book's format itself. I actually don't read ePub books from public libraries or Google, I don't need those and the format is horrible, with missing TOC. Like me, there are similar users and that does not limit us at all.

I don't get you mr joecampo, you lecture people about not mixing in opinons with facts but that seems to be your mantra against the nook color with the whole LCD vs eink and also your opinon about the future of BN it'self with posting outdate opinion based articles. that link is nothing more than an opinon based blog. and what about Facts you always say to post? Where have do you see facts that Barnes and Noble and Borders are IN CONVERSTIONS, all we have as way of facts is a hedge fund owner said they would fund Border's merge with BN. A far cry from those two sitting down as we speak.

[jocampo]

Originally Posted by Care

Actually, it shouldn't matter anyway. I wouldn't encourage somebody to buy a reader based on volumes sold.
Sorry for the rant.

You are totally correct!

I always suggest people in buying an ereader based on the books they read and like. But it is not fair to "sell" the idea that ePub is the panacea and getting a Nook gives you total freedom when buying or exporting books, because it is not correct.

Now, consumers and users usually dictate what will survive and what is a nice or good product. When consumers are not buying or getting a device with the same volumes of sales than other companies do, chances are that product will be out of the market or the company will change specifications in order to survive or be profitable, on which case, end user will suffer again. This can result in people stop buying Kindles and hence, Amazon re-adjusting strategies like allowing ePub as second format or, Sony, Nook, Kobo and others, start supporting MOBI or establishing alliances with Amazon.

[jocampo]

Originally Posted by boswd

I don't get you mr joecampo, you lecture people about not mixing in opinons with facts but that seems to be your mantra against the nook color with the whole LCD vs eink and also your opinon about the future of BN it'self with posting outdate opinion based articles. that link is nothing more than an opinon based blog. and what about Facts you always say to post? Where have do you see facts that Barnes and Noble and Borders are IN CONVERSTIONS, all we have as way of facts is a hedge fund owner said they would fund Border's merge with BN. A far cry from those two sitting down as we speak.

What I say about the Nook color is what all people know and can't debate: LCD and poor battery life. Nook color it's not a tablet, actually, is being sold by B&N as an e-reader. And when you compare even with Nook 1.5 it's not even close.

[boswd]

Originally Posted by jocampo

What I say about the Nook color is what all people know and can't debate: LCD and poor battery life. Nook color it's not a tablet, actually, is being sold by B&N as an e-reader. And when you compare even with Nook 1.5 it's not even close.

as an owner of both, I strongly disagree with you on the nook color as an ereader. You are dead wrong on that. It has functionality's that can be brought to ereading that eink can not bring, at least not in this point in time.

You might not like reading on an lcd screen, which by the way you do know that you are not legally bound to have the brightness settings on 100% and the background on the whitest of whites correct? There are settings you can adjust.

but your opinon on reading on an LCD vs eink is your personal preferance, not fact.

Poor battery life, well I guess that is in how you define poor? Poor compared to eink, sure. Poor compared to other lcd devices, nope, not by a long shot, this actually has pretty solid battery life and the fact that it uses very little battery life when in sleep mode is in fact above most other lcd based products. I charge my nook color far less than my Droid X.

[Kitabi]

Originally Posted by jocampo

Opinion here. What could be a niche store for you, it could not be for me. So this is not a fact, it is your opinion.

Actually, no. A niche store is a niche store, your denials notwithstanding.

This is not correct. Sir, I am telling you, I have MOBI books, "as is", that I bought from others bookstores and I am able to read those on my Kindle! Please! Get the facts or check online. There are lot of bookstores where you can download books in mobi format for your Kindle.

Alright, let's do this experiment. Go to Amazon and pick up their top 20 list. Then let's see how many of them can be bought off other stores and read AS IS on the Kindle.

You are indulging in wordplay to prove that niche stores are not niche stores and that proves that one can buy any book and read it on the Kindle. Sorry, but two delusions do not an argument make.

Really? how ... ... the CEO and B&N directors, don' know how ...please take a look, taken from http://www.investmentu.com/2010/Augu...-book-war.html:

Apart from the issues with that link someone already pointed out, B&N's troubles are hardly a mystery. The problematic aspect of your argument, as I pointed out earlier, is that you are using this to create the impression that B&N's doom is at hand. This is not the case. At this time ebook sales constitute roughly 10% of all book sales. And a lot of titles that depend on color or size are not even in the eworld yet. While ebook sales are growing at a rapid clip, this still means that B&N has an opening to reduce it's B&M footprint and focus on its ebook business. In other words, the bankruptcy of B&N is NOT a foregone conclusion. Your insistence on that is nothing but a FUD argument.

B&N ePub has it's own DRM scheme, at least today. If the site is closed or something happen, still you can download your books locally but you will have to break the DRM protection to "release" your ePub file or book. So it gives you a false sense of freedom; not because is ePub, is universal and swappable between devices, the main issue is the DRM protection which of course, is implemented on Kindles too.

Apart from the FUD thingy, the answer to this is not quite. Even if B&N fails, Adobe "may" go ahead and build social DRM in anyway. So, again, this is not a certain scenario. Plus, people who want insurance against this possibility can buy from Sony or Kobo and read on the Nook AS IS. This is not a possibility with the Kindle.

I think we agree in something and is that DRM protection is affecting the end user. But book's availability or being tied up to a device is strictly dependent of the books you like and read, more a user's preference than something related to the book's format itself. I actually don't read ePub books from public libraries or Google, I don't need those and the format is horrible, with missing TOC. Like me, there are similar users and that does not limit us at all.

And I did not disagree with that anywhere. I have issues with proprietary formats and DRM as it exists today in any flavor. If Amazon were to set up a competing consortium to popularize AZW and license it to others, I would be more than happy to buy a Kindle.

[FF2]

Originally Posted by Kitabi

1. I am not anti-Kindle. I am anti proprietary format which harms customers in the long run.

Just zeroed in on this statement. If it is not plain ascii, it is a proprietary standard. epub drm is just as proprietary as any kindle standard. And epub needs a special reader, whether on an iphone, ipad, pc, mac, or blackberry. You need a reader for it.

[boswd]

Originally Posted by FF2

Just zeroed in on this statement. If it is not plain ascii, it is a proprietary standard. epub drm is just as proprietary as any kindle standard. And epub needs a special reader, whether on an iphone, ipad, pc, mac, or blackberry. You need a reader for it.

no it doesn't your device just needs to support it, which all but kindles do.
It's out there for anyone to use.

Little odd don't you think. Its not epub shutting out kindle it's kindle shutting YOU out of ePub.

[jocampo]

@Kitabi,

You know what? I give up with you

You are trying to impose or think that the alternatives Kindle users have for buying their books is a Niche, that is 100% your opinion, that is what you feel and not the opinion of other Kindle users.

You were questioning and said, we can't read from other stores, that's simply untrue. We can, I can, all Kindle users can read and download from other stores without breaking any DRM protection.

You want to make people think that if your book is not ePub format you are stuck. The main issue here is about the DRM protection. Even if I was a B&N user and buy a book from Amazon, without DRM I could convert to ePub. So your argument is basically based on the preference and likeness for ePub format, B&N store and public libraries. That is what you like. There are other folks like me, who don't need anything from those stores. I actually sold my Nook because I was not able to download or get computer content from any place but Amazon; O' Reilly is the other good place and they sell their books in MOBI format. I have tons of books on my Kindle DXG from O'Reilly.