Now that's a business model...

[Rhynedahll]

Originally Posted by tompe

Why?

We had diversification before. The current state with very big publishers is a very recent thing. So what have changed making it viable to go back to how thing were?

I think the easy availability of cheap, quality fiction as ebooks will totally change the environment of publishing.

Big publishers can't really compete with indies on price and that, I think, will be the determinine factor.

[starrigger]

Originally Posted by leebase

Nor, frankly, is the "reading public" gaining all that much in a book that only 15,000 people are interested in.

Think you could be more demeaning? There are plenty of excellent writers who sell in numbers like that, and I happen to think the reading public is greatly enriched by their presence in the marketplace of books.

And if you're talking about hardcover sales, there are thousands of terrific writers who would be overjoyed at sales like that.

[Worldwalker]

It's a good bet that Justin Bieber sells more records than whatever you listen to, if it's anything but Justin Bieber. Should your music of choice be kicked to the curb because it doesn't sell "enough" by comparison?

[starrigger]

Originally Posted by Worldwalker

Baen went from an also-ran SF publisher to a major SF hardcover and ebook publisher primarily due to the Baen Free Library and their ebook sales policies (they've always done well in MM paperbacks). This is significant in a time when publishers are taking actions they claim are meant to cut costs, such as firing staff, and supposedly having great difficulty making a profit.

I don't think Baen was ever an also-ran SF publisher. Since its founding by Jim Baen, it's been popular with the military-SF and spacetech-SF audience, and though I think they had some distribution problems early on, they have long been a widely respected (and profitable) publisher in the SF arena. I've never heard that there was any kind of quantum change associated with their free library and ebooks marketing, though no doubt that contributes to their continued success.

As others have said, they're a small company, small enough that they were able to pick up and move from NYC to North Carolina, just because they wanted to be where it was cheaper and more pleasant to live. So it's very hard to compare what they do to what the big publishers do.

[leebase]

Originally Posted by starrigger

Think you could be more demeaning?

Demeaning? We are talking about folks that few people want to read. Ok, for those few people, it's a great thing. But why should any major publisher worry about carrying folks who's writing appeals to so few people?

It's like someone complaining that WalMart won't carry their specialty gardening tool that only 15,000 people would want to buy. WalMart just doesn't deal with products at that scale.

While such a product might be just fine for an individual web retailer -- it'd be a flop for WalMart. WalMart SHOULD (and does) drop such products from their stores.

Such authors SHOULD have their works handled by smaller companies catering to specialized audiences. That's not a bad thing.

Lee

[leebase]

Originally Posted by Worldwalker

It's a good bet that Justin Bieber sells more records than whatever you listen to, if it's anything but Justin Bieber. Should your music of choice be kicked to the curb because it doesn't sell "enough" by comparison?

I have three tween/teen daughters -- so, yeah, Bieber is heard in my house. However, I understand your point.

I seem to have communicated that such low volume books should not be published. That wasn't my intent. I'm saying that such small potatoes are not suitable for big publishers without it reflecting poorly on the judgment of those big publishers.

I love Baen books. I imagine quite a few of the books I read on Baen fall into the category of not being "mainstream". But it's great that there is a Baen catering to military sci fi readers like myself. I would not be outraged if John Ringo could not get one of the Big 5 to publish his works (maybe some of his are, just making up an example).

I'm sure somebody out there writes the most wonderful field manuals for midwestern rodent husbandry. And there may be a thousand people acorss the globe that are highly interested in such books. I just don't think humanity has been given a grave injustice if none of the Big 5 cared to publish such a book.

Lee

[leebase]

@Jeffrey - I went back and reread my post, and I can clearly see how it could come across as demeaning. I take my well deserved 50 lashes with a wet noodle.

I went from making the point that large publishers need not have interest in niche books to a hyperbolic statement that none would be the lesser if such a book didn't exist.

I will now begin the self lashing

Lee

[b0ned0me]

Originally Posted by HPOliver

Do you recall the days of neighborhood grocery stores, independent banks, mom and pop hardware shops, and small retailers of almost everything under the sun?

True, things were less convenient back then and I suppose we paid more for the items we purchased, but there were some significant benefits also

I can vaguely remember when I was a child going along the high street with my mother, buying some bread at the bakers, some meat at the butcher, checking to see what the fishmonger had available, and so on. Then two big supermarkets opened just outside town, and we went to them instead. Nowadays the high street is nothing but charity shops, coffee shops, jewellers and the like.

The reason the independents died is because we (their customers) abandoned them in favour of a more convenient selection of poorer produce at lower prices. It's too early to tell if the changes ebooks will bring are good or bad. Looking at the majority of what is produced and sold nowadays in the UK, I'm not too optimistic - low-rent mass-market swill seems to be the order of the day, but hopefully a few small specialists can make a living in the cracks.

[leebase]

I remember the days of neighborhood stores, high prices, little selection. For the most part, I don't miss them

Lee

[Maggie Leung]

I've been abroad for months where mom-and-pop specialty stores dominate. It's a pain for the most part. As it happens, they are moving toward more one-stop shopping.

I know some people here who still prefer to buy produce from the green grocer, meat from the butcher and so on, but they're retired and have time to hunt down items.

[Nate the great]

Originally Posted by starrigger

As others have said, they're a small company, small enough that they were able to pick up and move from NYC to North Carolina, just because they wanted to be where it was cheaper and more pleasant to live. So it's very hard to compare what they do to what the big publishers do.

When did that happen?

[khalleron]

The big publishing houses are no different from any other corporation - no one thinks 20 years or even 5 years down the line. They think no further than the quarterly and annual reports.

They have to score big NOW, because no one stays at a company longer than they have to - they're all looking for advancement and to polish up their resumes.

Which is the real reason the midlist is dying and the big pubs are only looking for the next big blockbuster. It has nothing to do with the quality of the writing or the fanbase of the author. It has everything to do with the short-term bottom line.

[Kali Yuga]

Originally Posted by khalleron

The big publishing houses are no different from any other corporation - no one thinks 20 years or even 5 years down the line.

mmmm

Most of the larger corporations have at least a decade of sales data. They know exactly how much they make from new sales and backlists.

If the midlist really was making money down the line, they'd keep the authors around.

Originally Posted by khalleron

Which is the real reason the midlist is dying...

Actually, the midlist is not "dying." That's the whole point of the article that kicked this thread off. What is apparently happening is that as the big publishers prune the underperformers, most of them wind up at smaller publishers that provide more attention. Presumably (though not thoroughly discussed in the article) is that the sales figures aren't changing dramatically as a result.

Originally Posted by kahlleron

It has nothing to do with the quality of the writing or the fanbase of the author. It has everything to do with the short-term bottom line.

mmmm

So, exactly how much money should a publisher invest in an highly reputable author with a contract for a big advance and small sales? If the author's books don't break even, how many more books -- with the larger advances typical of working with a big publisher -- should the publisher support?

And, of course, in the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" department: If they do support a bunch of underperforming writers, people excoriate them as an "inefficient" company that soaks the public, since the big hits have to subsidize the numerous small losses. Conversely, if they prune the underperformers, they're castigated as greedy capitalists who are sowing their own doom.

If you feel the need to assign blame -- which may not be appropriate, since it doesn't seem like anyone is getting too badly damaged here -- then a fair amount of it ought to be apportioned to the authors and their agents, who are asking for larger advances than in the past, which in turn makes it harder for their books to turn a profit.

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by khalleron

The big publishing houses are no different from any other corporation - no one thinks 20 years or even 5 years down the line. They think no further than the quarterly and annual reports.

They have to score big NOW, because no one stays at a company longer than they have to - they're all looking for advancement and to polish up their resumes.

Which is the real reason the midlist is dying and the big pubs are only looking for the next big blockbuster. It has nothing to do with the quality of the writing or the fanbase of the author. It has everything to do with the short-term bottom line.

Corporations have to look at quarterly and annual reports, and at longer term goals as well. Some do that better than others. Although I fail to see how pruning underperforming authors is ignoring the long term: if an author has consistently sold 15,000 per title in the series, I don't see any reason to assume that this is going to change.

As for only looking for the next big blockbuster - the big publishers are putting out 80,000 titles a year. Of course they want the next big blockbuster, too - ignoring money-making opportunities is not the key to success in any business.

[emellaich]

So, I've put this out there before. I guess I'll take another run up the flagpole.

As I see it, publishers offer four services. 1) They weed out bad books. Take Baen: I know what type/quality of book I will get if it is published by Baen. 2) They provide a second set of eyes to edit and guide the book as well as proofreading. 3) They produce the book. 4) They market it.

Along with indie authors, I see the opportunity for a new role of indie 'publishers'. At the first level, its simply a recommendation system. I envision a blog like "books on the knob" except instead of telling us about free books, they would review and recommend indie books. You would follow indie publishers whose taste you trust. They would get paid through their referral links to the stores (Amazon, BN, etcetera).

They also could offer the other publishing services. Consider the production process. Some writers just aren't technically savvy. A skilled indie publisher could convert the book to the correct electronic formats, set up accounts, and upload them as appropriate.

There might even be indie publishers who specialize as editors. John Smith might publish his own novel: "The Depths of Space". However, let's say that Jane Doe has the Midas touch with polishing books. She might talk Smith into allowing her to produce a "Jane Presents" version of the book. This Jane edited version might be sold along side the standard version, except that the Jane Presents version brings a royalty to Jane.

Of course it wouldn't be easy to just put up your shingle to be an indie publisher. You would need to build a following and a reputation. If people begin to trust your recommendations and/or your editing then you can funnel readers to 'approved' ebooks.