The Cult of Kindle? Are we there yet? - Page 2

TallMomof2 · 12-07-2007, 05:15 PM

Semantics, shemantics. Morality and legality aren't always the same thing. For me it's cannot not should not. Others see it in a different shade of gray.

Barcey · 12-07-2007, 05:21 PM

Well I was thinking that if common methods of indoctrination into a cult are food / sleep deprivation and separation from family and friends then maybe... but then you could say that about any good book.

I found this though and I don't think the Kindle falls into the five characteristics. Well maybe #5.

http://www.cultinformation.org.uk/faq.html

Nate the great · 12-07-2007, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alisa

I think we need a tar pit icon we can flag a thread with to denote that it's gone over to the DRM debate. For the last couple of days I've been clicking on threads so hopefully only to find more

Sometime this weekend I will start a thread where we can discuss the next color for the Kindle. It wiil have a poll.

nathantw · 12-07-2007, 06:42 PM

Welcome to the modern age of digital rights. I hate the idea there's DRM in the electronic books we buy, but it's there so we need live with it. I hate the idea that I need to buy 2 of the same game if I want to play head to head with my son with his Sony PSP portable gaming system, but you know I deal with it. That's just part of living in the digital world. If you know you're going to want to sell or give away your book after you're done with it then get a paper book. If you know the rules beforehand then you can adjust your actions to accomodate.

JSWolf · 12-07-2007, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nekokami

We need a "sit back and munch popcorn" smiley... I sense the floor show is about to start up again.

Your wish is granted....

GregS · 12-07-2007, 07:09 PM

DRM or not to DRM is hardly the question. Managerial control has dug its own grave, for DRM will not last the distance, it is doomed to failure, the only question is how long it will survive.

Five years? Ten? Substantially more, or substantially less, is a guess.

But crippled literature has no long term future.

If Kindle encourages more people to use ebooks, it is a good thing, in the end they will want something more reliable than crippled literature - it makes the market for alternatives and that is also a good thing.

Managerial stupidity knows no bounds, but it cannot ensure a stupid solution will forever stay in place. I will not buy any literature, unless by accident, that I cannot crack, format for other uses in other contexts, and be assured that I can get it to work on any device I may buy in the future.

Most people do not have this approach, for most readers the material is disposable, a consumer item to be used and then discarded, not something kept indefinitely.

But time will tell, the consumer approach will buy anything, but I will not, and there are many like me and we will outlive DRM. Besides which I give it about a year or so for "DRM cracking software" is developed when and if the Kindle is a success.

mrkai · 12-07-2007, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GregS

But time will tell, the consumer approach will buy anything, but I will not, and there are many like me and we will outlive DRM. Besides which I give it about a year or so for "DRM cracking software" is developed when and if the Kindle is a success.

...then I can tell you when it will happen.

Europe or Textbooks...like the latter since it has better odds of happening first.

allen.gotwald · 12-07-2007, 11:03 PM

I'm a Sony 505 owner but I can appreciate the disclaimer. If a single book can be distributed to 500,000 people for free from a single source (a unique distribution capability of the internet of e-books) authors are hurt. Then again, I found an LRF copy of a sci-fi book I hadn't seen in 30 years that I'd read as a youngster. The book doesn't exist on shelves or on e-book store web sites so I didn't feel guilty about downloading and reading this treasure (that had $.25 on the cover). That's a capability unique to the net that normal distribution services don't cater to. It's a conundrum.

Panurge · 12-07-2007, 11:20 PM

Look, folks, something like the same language used to be included in pbooks as well, particularly in some of my older Penguins, which warned that the printed book you purchased could not be resold, copied, etc., etc. Of course it didn't work, and in any case, how would the publisher check? Libraries went on merrily purchasing and loaning out pbooks with the warning clearly printed inside the cover with no compunction. This is nothing new. It's just that trying to track pbook usage (and resell or copying) was next to impossible, whereas with e-books it is at least within the realm of possibility, though still not very easy.

Panurge · 12-07-2007, 11:24 PM

Followup: from my copy of the Penguin-Pelican paperback edition of Mary Douglas, Purity and Danger, 1970 (copyright page):
"This book is sold subject to the condition that it shall not, by way of trade or otherwise, be lent, re-sold, hired out, or otherwise circulated without the publisher's prior consent in any form of binding or cover other than that in which it is published and without a similar condition including this condition being imposed on the subsequent publisher."
Of course, the operative language here is "binding or cover," but I think you get the point. This is nothing new.

kacir · 12-08-2007, 08:41 AM

*I* am definitely not a member of the Kindle cult.
I do not have one, for a start.
I do not live in USA, so Amazon does not want my money.
I perceive the Kindle with mixed feelings.

I am glad that there is finally an ebook reader that is going to take the world by storm. Perhaps the publishers will stop ignoring the world of ebooks
I personally do not consider the look of the device important. The quality of display, price, features and ergonomy of use are much, much more important to me. And ... I do not even consider Kindle to be ugly or even bad-looking. You should see some of my computers. The more they resemble something contrived by Dr. Frankenstein the cooler they look to me

On the other hand there is the proprietary lock-down of the device that I DO dislike, just like I pointed out in several other threads.

Overall I see more positive things than negative about Kindle.

HarryT · 12-08-2007, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kacir

On the other hand there is the proprietary lock-down of the device that I DO dislike, just like I pointed out in several other threads.

What "propriatory lockdown" are you referring to? You don't have to buy books from Amazon if you don't wish to - you can load your own content.

Mikou · 12-08-2007, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Panurge

Libraries went on merrily purchasing and loaning out pbooks with the warning clearly printed inside the cover with no compunction.

I don't know about the past when lending libraries were new, but I thought that these days libraries only lend books with the publisher's permission and that the lending history is something that those publishers actually track.

nekokami · 12-08-2007, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Panurge

Followup: from my copy of the Penguin-Pelican paperback edition of Mary Douglas, Purity and Danger, 1970 (copyright page):
"This book is sold subject to the condition that it shall not, by way of trade or otherwise, be lent, re-sold, hired out, or otherwise circulated without the publisher's prior consent in any form of binding or cover other than that in which it is published and without a similar condition including this condition being imposed on the subsequent publisher."
Of course, the operative language here is "binding or cover," but I think you get the point. This is nothing new.

I think this is a different issue, related to to the practice of "stripping" unsold books and returning the covers to publishers for credit. I don't think this reads as a prohibition against loaning or re-sale.

If the Kindle really catches on (and Amazon doesn't provide a book resale/swap service), there will probably be a court challenge regarding the "doctrine of first sale" and its applicability to ebooks. (Where's that popcorn icon again? Oh yeah:

)

nekokami · 12-08-2007, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikou

I don't know about the past when lending libraries were new, but I thought that these days libraries only lend books with the publisher's permission and that the lending history is something that those publishers actually track.

Not in the US, but I believe this is done in the UK.

12-07-2007, 06:42 PM	#19
nathantw Zealot Posts: 145 Karma: 230 Join Date: Oct 2007 Device: 505	Welcome to the modern age of digital rights. I hate the idea there's DRM in the electronic books we buy, but it's there so we need live with it. I hate the idea that I need to buy 2 of the same game if I want to play head to head with my son with his Sony PSP portable gaming system, but you know I deal with it. That's just part of living in the digital world. If you know you're going to want to sell or give away your book after you're done with it then get a paper book. If you know the rules beforehand then you can adjust your actions to accomodate. Last edited by nathantw; 12-07-2007 at 06:45 PM.

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12-07-2007, 05:15 PM	#16
TallMomof2 Kindlephilia Posts: 2,017 Karma: 1139255 Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Snowpacolypse 2010 Device: Too many to count	Semantics, shemantics. Morality and legality aren't always the same thing. For me it's cannot not should not. Others see it in a different shade of gray.

12-07-2007, 05:21 PM	#17
Barcey Wizard Posts: 1,531 Karma: 8059866 Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Canada Device: Kobo H2O / Aura HD / Glo / iPad3	Well I was thinking that if common methods of indoctrination into a cult are food / sleep deprivation and separation from family and friends then maybe... but then you could say that about any good book. I found this though and I don't think the Kindle falls into the five characteristics. Well maybe #5. http://www.cultinformation.org.uk/faq.html

12-07-2007, 07:09 PM	#21
GregS Zealot Posts: 107 Karma: 308 Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Perth Australia Device: EZ Reader 5", Iliad	DRM or not to DRM is hardly the question. Managerial control has dug its own grave, for DRM will not last the distance, it is doomed to failure, the only question is how long it will survive. Five years? Ten? Substantially more, or substantially less, is a guess. But crippled literature has no long term future. If Kindle encourages more people to use ebooks, it is a good thing, in the end they will want something more reliable than crippled literature - it makes the market for alternatives and that is also a good thing. Managerial stupidity knows no bounds, but it cannot ensure a stupid solution will forever stay in place. I will not buy any literature, unless by accident, that I cannot crack, format for other uses in other contexts, and be assured that I can get it to work on any device I may buy in the future. Most people do not have this approach, for most readers the material is disposable, a consumer item to be used and then discarded, not something kept indefinitely. But time will tell, the consumer approach will buy anything, but I will not, and there are many like me and we will outlive DRM. Besides which I give it about a year or so for "DRM cracking software" is developed when and if the Kindle is a success.

12-07-2007, 11:03 PM	#23
allen.gotwald Advocate Posts: 44 Karma: 34094 Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: ohio Device: SONY PRS-505 and Nook Color	I'm a Sony 505 owner but I can appreciate the disclaimer. If a single book can be distributed to 500,000 people for free from a single source (a unique distribution capability of the internet of e-books) authors are hurt. Then again, I found an LRF copy of a sci-fi book I hadn't seen in 30 years that I'd read as a youngster. The book doesn't exist on shelves or on e-book store web sites so I didn't feel guilty about downloading and reading this treasure (that had $.25 on the cover). That's a capability unique to the net that normal distribution services don't cater to. It's a conundrum.

12-07-2007, 11:20 PM	#24
Panurge Enthusiast Posts: 34 Karma: 336 Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Texas Device: Sony Reader	Look, folks, something like the same language used to be included in pbooks as well, particularly in some of my older Penguins, which warned that the printed book you purchased could not be resold, copied, etc., etc. Of course it didn't work, and in any case, how would the publisher check? Libraries went on merrily purchasing and loaning out pbooks with the warning clearly printed inside the cover with no compunction. This is nothing new. It's just that trying to track pbook usage (and resell or copying) was next to impossible, whereas with e-books it is at least within the realm of possibility, though still not very easy.

12-07-2007, 11:24 PM	#25
Panurge Enthusiast Posts: 34 Karma: 336 Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Texas Device: Sony Reader	Followup: from my copy of the Penguin-Pelican paperback edition of Mary Douglas, Purity and Danger, 1970 (copyright page): "This book is sold subject to the condition that it shall not, by way of trade or otherwise, be lent, re-sold, hired out, or otherwise circulated without the publisher's prior consent in any form of binding or cover other than that in which it is published and without a similar condition including this condition being imposed on the subsequent publisher." Of course, the operative language here is "binding or cover," but I think you get the point. This is nothing new.

12-08-2007, 08:41 AM	#26
kacir Wizard Posts: 3,463 Karma: 10684861 Join Date: May 2006 Device: PocketBook 360, before it was Sony Reader, cassiopeia A-20	I am definitely not a member of the Kindle cult. I do not have one, for a start. I do not live in USA, so Amazon does not want my money. I perceive the Kindle with mixed feelings. I am glad that there is finally an ebook reader that is going to take the world by storm. Perhaps the publishers will stop ignoring the world of ebooks I personally do not consider the look of the device important. The quality of display, price, features and ergonomy of use are much, much more important to me. And ... I do not even consider Kindle to be ugly or even bad-looking. You should see some of my computers. The more they resemble something contrived by Dr. Frankenstein the cooler they look to me On the other hand there is the proprietary lock-down of the device that I DO dislike, just like I pointed out in several other threads. Overall I see more positive things than negative about Kindle.