Copyfraud - public domain's fate?

[Kali Yuga]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

In the Netherlands you have to be 16 to buy alcohol if it is under 15% ABV, and at 18 you can drink anything. Are you saying that if an 18 year old American orders online alcoholic beverages from the Netherlands it is the theoretical distributor's duty to refuse the order?

Yes.

If the Dutch alcohol retailer is going to do business in the US, they are obligated to obey US laws.

To wit: I presume it is illegal for a felon in the Netherlands to purchase a firearm. If a Dutch felon tries to purchase a handgun from an online gun dealer located in the US, the gun dealer still has the obligation to determine whether or not the Dutch buyer is a felon, let alone has the legal right to own the weapon in question. Right?

[Kali Yuga]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Unfortunately it is most assuredly not that simple.

I agree. So I'll say it again, once more with feeling:

"Implementing this would not be easy or free, nor would it be bullet-proof -- nor should my brief conceptual sketch be viewed as an attempt to downplay the various difficulties."

However, difficult != impossible. And once it's set up, it's set up.

Realistically, I seriously doubt anyone will actually do this, even though it really is their responsibility. Regardless, once they are notified, PG should at least try to do something, rather than just say "oh it's the downloader's responsibility."

Or, to put it another way: If you think it's too onerous for Gutenberg to figure out the various copyright terms, on what basis is it feasible for an ordinary everyday citizen to know what is and is not PD?

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

Yes.

If the Dutch alcohol retailer is going to do business in the US, they are obligated to obey US laws.

What if they just have a display at the beginning that asks for the age and reminds the buyer that they should follow the laws in their own country?

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

To wit: I presume it is illegal for a felon in the Netherlands to purchase a firearm. If a Dutch felon tries to purchase a handgun from an online gun dealer located in the US, the gun dealer still has the obligation to determine whether or not the Dutch buyer is a felon, let alone has the legal right to own the weapon in question. Right?

I get your point, but I would rather not compare books with firearms.

[Kali Yuga]

Originally Posted by murraypaul

They do claim a copyright in the scanned images.

Oh?

http://books.google.com/books?id=GbU...page&q&f=false

That book was chosen at random, by the way.

When you find Google's copyright notice on that page or that book, let me know.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

Or, to put it another way: If you think it's too onerous for Gutenberg to figure out the various copyright terms, on what basis is it feasible for an ordinary everyday citizen to know what is and is not PD?

Because that's the duty that copyright law imposes on us. It is our responsibility to obey the law that applies in our country. There is absolutely nothing whatsoever in the International Berne Copyright Convention that requires someone in one country to enforce the copyright law of another country (or, as you're suggesting, of ALL other countries). If you believe otherwise, could you give any references to such a requirement?

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

When you find Google's copyright notice on that page or that book, let me know.

Excellent, they have stopped.
The small text that says Digitized by Google used to be a copyright notice.

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

Realistically, I seriously doubt anyone will actually do this, even though it really is their responsibility. Regardless, once they are notified, PG should at least try to do something, rather than just say "oh it's the downloader's responsibility."

It is the downloader's responsibility.
PGA have to abide by the laws of Australia, they have no obligation to enforce the laws of the US.
Some of the content on MobileRead might be illegal in certain countries. Is it MobileRead's obligation to be aware of all such laws everywhere in the world, and enforce them?

[FF2]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

What if they just have a display at the beginning that asks for the age and reminds the buyer that they should follow the laws in their own country?


I get your point, but I would rather not compare books with firearms.

The pen is mightier than the sword (and maybe the gun!)

[Kali Yuga]

OK, I did a tad of Googling and found this from 2004....

http://blog.librarylaw.com/libraryla..._with_the.html

Mitchell's estate did threaten to sue, and the Australian site did pull the book rather than go through the expenses of selectively blocking the book and/or dealing with lawsuits.

Separately, geo-restricted PD editions and related works are available, just not in countries where the copyright term is longer.

So, this is definitely a conflict (with a poor resolution), but not "copyfraud."

Originally Posted by HarryT

Because that's the duty that copyright law imposes on us. It is our responsibility to obey the law that applies in our country. There is absolutely nothing whatsoever in the International Berne Copyright Convention that requires someone in one country to enforce the copyright law of another country (or, as you're suggesting, of ALL other countries). If you believe otherwise, could you give any references to such a requirement?

If we are talking term length, then you are correct that the durations are completely different in Australia than in other countries.

However, otherwise I don't believe your interpretation is correct. If it is, then a company in Australia could, for example, set up a business that only accepts US customers and ignores US copyrights with no consequences. The point of sale is not Australia, it's the buyer's location (US); thus, Australian copyright laws aren't being violated, and US entities would have no legal recourse.

There are several real-world examples, notably the Allofmp3.com case. The allegation was that allofmp3.com was operating in Russia, did not have legitimate authority or authorization to sell digital music, and was sued in the US by American entities (RIAA and multiple music labels) for copyright infringement.

Similarly, Kazaa was sued in the US for copyright infringement, even though their owner (Sharman Networks) was incorporated in Vanatu and operated out of Australia. (They were sued separately in Australia, by the way.)

So, I'm going to *cough* go out on a limb and state that while I hope it never happens, the Aussie PG site's operators apparently can be sued in the US courts under these conditions.

[ATDrake]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

The idea that PG has absolutely no responsibility in this matter, and are incapable of doing anything at all to address it, just doesn't wash.

That is not what my post was saying at all.

In my view, PG has been acknowledging their responsibilities towards remaining international copyright-holders by putting up their repeated warning notices regarding the fact that public domain applies in their host country and not necessarily in the visitor's, please check your local laws.

And I did not say that they were incapable of addressing it, only that the methods proposed for the stringency you seem to require are impractical and unnecessarily restrictive for non-host-country-residents who may well be eligible under their own country's public domain terms.

Implementing them would seem to provide little benefit for either the site, its visitors, or even the hypothetical offended international copyright-holders, for a great deal of what seems like wasted effort relative to other things they are currently doing with their time and resources.

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

• Use IP geolocation software to automatically determine the likely location of the downloader, and block specified nations.
• Only apply it when the rights holder complains.

http://www.ipligence.com/ for example offers IP geolocation info, with updates, for as low as $40/year. Obviously there's more to it than installing an app on a web server or two, but it's hardly like they will need to spend hundreds of hours per week blocking IP's.

Maybe not hundreds of hours per week, but very likely thousands of dollars per year.

That IPligence actually priced at license per server, and the cheap option has only a third of the database line records that the expensive ones do.

So in order to get the broadest number of applicable IP addresses and apply it across the board to all their load-distributing, backup, and mirror servers, it would probably work well into the high thousands, just to pre-emptively appease potential complainants that might someday materialize.

This seems a less-than-appropriate use of the donations people occasionally give them as thanks.

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

Again I don't think they should pull the ebook altogether, but they should make a good-faith effort to honor international copyright laws while still distributing it as PD where applicable.

Personally, I think they've done so in a reasonable manner, and obviously, you think they don't, but we can agree to disagree.

[Kali Yuga]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

What if they just have a display at the beginning that asks for the age and reminds the buyer that they should follow the laws in their own country?

Keeping in mind that I don't know the specifics on international alcohol sales...

The Dutch seller will be required to follow the same age regulations and verification procedures as a US/domestic seller.

In at least some cases, age is verified upon delivery, by the shipping company (e.g. Fed Ex). Sites may also use other age verification techniques and do use disclaimers.

I've never bought booze online, so I don't specifically know what they use. But it's pretty clear that a disclaimer alone is not sufficient.

And really, the idea that only the distributor is responsible is a tad silly, as it would create a massive loophole.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

The Dutch seller will be required to follow the same age regulations and verification procedures as a US/domestic seller.

That would be the case only if a contract is signed. As we started from PG Australia: do they have a signed agreement with the US?

And just to make things interesting: if I go to Australia and download a PD book and then go to America, where it wouldn't be PD, with that book on my reader/PC/phone, would I be committing a felony? If not, am I allowed to email it to a friend? If yes, would the same thing be true in the case of a paper version of a PD book?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

If we are talking term length, then you are correct that the durations are completely different in Australia than in other countries.

No, Australia now has a "life + 70" copyright law, just like most other countries do. It used to be "life + 50", and when it changed, those books that were in the public domain remained so.

However, otherwise I don't believe your interpretation is correct. If it is, then a company in Australia could, for example, set up a business that only accepts US customers and ignores US copyrights with no consequences. The point of sale is not Australia, it's the buyer's location (US); thus, Australian copyright laws aren't being violated, and US entities would have no legal recourse.

The site could then be legitimately charged with encouraging and contributing to copyright infringement. It would, however, be the downloaders who were breaking copyright law, not the site. You will note that all "respectable" eBook sites (including MR) have prominent warnings to downloaders to check that the file being downloaded is in the public domain in the downloader's country. This more than satisfies the requirements of the law.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by HarryT

It's an issue for the downloader (he is breaking US copyright law).

You sure about that?

[Kali Yuga]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

That would be the case only if a contract is signed. As we started from PG Australia: do they have a signed agreement with the US?

To my knowledge, yes. Both the US and Australia are signatories to the Berne Convention.

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

And just to make things interesting: if I go to Australia and download a PD book and then go to America, where it wouldn't be PD, with that book on my reader/PC/phone, would I be committing a felony?

To my knowledge, no on two counts.

You got the book in Australia, so it's all clear. You could also purchase a public domain paper edition and bring it back to the US.

And just to be clear, it's not a felony. I don't know the specifics, but I believe it's only a criminal offense when you cross a certain dollar line. So if you sell $1500 worth of counterfeit goods, that may be a felony.

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

If not, am I allowed to email it to a friend? If yes, would the same thing be true in the case of a paper version of a PD book?

If we followed the strictest possible interpretation:

I assume you can give that one paper copy to anyone you please.

You would not be allowed to scan it, put it online and distribute it (either free or paid) except to people in nations where it's PD.