Should Demonoid Stay Down?

[hidari]

I am assuming people know that there are many bit torrent sites besides demonoid...here are some:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BitTorrent_client

when it rains it........TORRENTS.....

Originally Posted by bingle

But that's my point. We are in a world of genies giving us stuff for free. The genie's name was Demonoid. You asked it for a copy of a CD, movie, or software, and it gave it to you. And everyone else on earth still had their copies of it, too!

This obviously isn't a literal genie with magic smoke and a lantern, but I think the analogy holds perfectly. And I think that this analogy lends us a good viewpoint to discuss why people don't strongly feel that downloading is wrong.

But if you can see a hole in the analogy, please point it out.

[hidari]

and the bit torrent sites:

http://internet.wikia.com/wiki/Compa...tTorrent_sites

[mrkai]

Originally Posted by jasonkchapman

No matter what business model is devised, it will devolve into an arms race between rights holders and rights violators--between those who create and those who want the benefits of that creation without paying for it (good grief, I'm sounding all Objectivist, here).

Hell, I gave people free access to a novel and still had the copyright violated. Why was it violated? Because reading on the Web just wasn't convenient enough for some folks.

Every person that gets to enjoy a digital thing won't be paying for it. THAT is the reality we face.

Like Objectivism, Capitalism...and all other "isms"...your exclusive distribution rights, as well as mine for that matter, only work "on paper" in the digital realm.

This is the way it is now. There is effectively and realistically NOTHING that can be done about it.

Technology is one of history's most efficient culling devices. As new technologies have emerged they have left the destruction of some old way of doing things in their wake.

It has happened before. Now its our turn.

Unlike many of you guys, I have spent many hours (many) thinking of how to either modify the behavior or *exploit* it...because it is just not going to stop.

If you want to make and manufacture a product that cannot be mass reproduced with little to no effective overhead than you *don't do what we do*...

The first time i found a crack for one of our apps..I was LIVID. I mean I paid people to work on it, I sacrificed countless hours, etc.

So, as typical, I went on a tear, sending out DCMA takedown notices...wasted good man hours coming up with DRM schemes that were always defeated and irritated the people that actually DID pay for the stuff instead of making improvements (well, they came slower because the time was divided)...rinse/lather/repeat.

And this has been going on in the software field since the 70s....hasn't even remotely gotten better over time, as technology makes it easier still.

So you can do what we do and get what we get...or...not.

If you think the world is going to collapse because there isn't a fiction market...I assure you it will not. Someone will always do it. And someone will always read it without paying a dime.

This WILL NOT END...as surely as war, murder and savagery have not.

There is no "arms race"...if absolute control is the "win"...we've lost, long ago.

The DMCA is a perfect example of the complete and utter failure of this thinking. The Kindle...sigh. Another fracture.

We have to think about the problem as it exists as opposed to how we wish it were or how it ought to be...because it just isn't.

And what of the future? The policy makers of tomorrow come out of the pool of people we are talking about. Do you think they are going to seriously protect these "archaic" interests?

I know a young guy...brilliant guy. He worked with a team of people to solve a problem in software. They were ready to bring this to market are were slapped with a software patent violation suit for essentially...math. They didn't cheat. They didn't steal. They worked...hard. They were denied.

He's about to graduate from Cornell University. He hasn't forgotten it.

He's not alone. The leaders of the content fields are causing such a backlash that I actually wonder if in 20 years the entire landscape won't be razed and replaced with something else.

There will always be things to read, songs to sing and pictures to look at. I don't think tho, that the businesses that have grown around these things will be able to exist in their current forms.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by bingle

But that's my point. We are in a world of genies giving us stuff for free. The genie's name was Demonoid. You asked it for a copy of a CD, movie, or software, and it gave it to you. And everyone else on earth still had their copies of it, too!

This obviously isn't a literal genie with magic smoke and a lantern, but I think the analogy holds perfectly.

If the analogy held, where's Demonoid now? Why isn't it still giving people stuff for free? Why couldn't it use its "magic" to fend off the authorities?

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by strangeseraph

Here's a potential situation: JKR will not let her books be published in ebook format because of potential piracy... So would it be wrong to download the text versions of the books?

Yes, because they were illegally obtained, and JKR did not get paid for them.

Originally Posted by strangeseraph

or is it wrong not to offer them at all?

JKR has the right to say her books can be printed on paper, put on film, or chiseled into stone tablets. You may not like her choice of mediums, but it's still her decision to make, not yours.

If you don't like it, demonstrate by not buying her books... vote with your wallet. I assure you, if JKR thought she wasn't going to get the money she wanted from print books, she'd be putting out e-books now.

[mrkai]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

If the analogy held, where's Demonoid now? Why isn't it still giving people stuff for free? Why couldn't it use its "magic" to fend off the authorities?

Its like the ultimate expression of market driven supply side economics isn't it?

Did the death of napster fix the problem? Even US interference with The Pirate Bay didn't help. UK and US threats against Russia over allofmp3 simply shifted the thing away.

What I don't get is why content folk aren't smart enough to EXPLOIT THIS

Every author here can play this game.

Steve...by putting your books on the Amazon store, you have just taken the first step.

All you guys have to do is put your stuff on Amazon and lock it down.

Then, make yourselves a "bookw0rmz.com" torrent site or whatever, plaster it with google ads and ads of ill repute, and "give away" your books for "free"

Split the pool and walk away laughing.


*Innovate*...fill the market void

[bingle]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

If the analogy held, where's Demonoid now? Why isn't it still giving people stuff for free? Why couldn't it use its "magic" to fend off the authorities?

Well, as someone else pointed out, there are many, many other torrent sites.

Napster was shut down years and years ago, a few years ago saw SuprNova close - but everyone has acknowledged that it's a game of whack-a-mole.

But obviously the analogy doesn't cover protection from the authorities. Just as it doesn't cover the duplication of physical objects. It's a limited genie. The analogy is meant to focus on one aspect of the problem - people's perception of copying content, as opposed to walking out of the store with it. No one thinks that getting a wish granted by a genie is "stealing", yet it deprives creators exactly as much as internet piracy.

[mrkai]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Yes, because they were illegally obtained, and JKR did not get paid for them.

JKR has the right to say her books can be printed on paper, put on film, or chiseled into stone tablets. You may not like her choice of mediums, but it's still her decision to make, not yours.

If you don't like it, demonstrate by not buying her books... vote with your wallet. I assure you, if JKR thought she wasn't going to get the money she wanted from print books, she'd be putting out e-books now.

The market has decided this issue...hasn't it?

Copyright is based on one principle: making sure creators get compensated so they will continue to create.

If you are not getting compensated you have nothing but ownership of the original creation because you effectively cannot control the distribution exclusively. It is IMPOSSIBLE.

So, it follows, logically, that you want to do what the market dictates to get compensation. If you did not want or need compensation, then copyright would be irrelevant.

Focus on the point...not the principle.

"bookw0rz.com" concept ©2007 K. Cherry

-K

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by mrkai

Steve...by putting your books on the Amazon store, you have just taken the first step.

All you guys have to do is put your stuff on Amazon and lock it down.

I doubt that will help. Someone will just figure out a way to hack the Kindles or the files, and remove Amazon's DRM.

The only weapon I have is to appeal to the customer's sense of fair play, to wit: If you want my book... pay me. I have no other effective tool at my disposal, I recognize that, and so should everyone else involved.

If I keep getting paid, I'll keep putting my books out. If I don't get paid, I'll write for myself, or not, but either way they'll never see the light of day. Since writing isn't my chief source of income, I have no problem giving up on it if it is not profitable for me, and I will if it comes to that.

So: Either the world plays fair with me, or I stop playing. For me, it's that simple. (Lucky me.) And if the world is okay with me, and many other voices, going silent, that's life. They can go back to watching American Idol, and I won't feel that bad about it.

[mrkai]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

I doubt that will help. Someone will just figure out a way to hack the Kindles or the files, and remove Amazon's DRM.

The only weapon I have is to appeal to the customer's sense of fair play, to wit: If you want my book... pay me. I have no other effective tool at my disposal, I recognize that, and so should everyone else involved.

If I keep getting paid, I'll keep putting my books out. If I don't get paid, I'll write for myself, or not, but either way they'll never see the light of day. Since writing isn't my chief source of income, I have no problem giving up on it if it is not profitable for me, and I will if it comes to that.

So: Either the world plays fair with me, or I stop playing. For me, it's that simple. (Lucky me.) And if the world is okay with me, and many other voices, going silent, that's life. They can go back to watching American Idol, and I won't feel that bad about it.

You may be missed. Someone else will take your place.

That was the OTHER thing I finally came to. Its not personal. Well it is to ME, but its business at the end of the day.

the point of locking down the stuff with DRM was to make it more appealing *to steal*...preferably, from you, on your terms, where the act of this "stealing" got you paid

Exploit the market. Really, that's what is going to come down to.

And American Idol seems to do a good bit of business...its a brand.

Funny, that

[DaleDe]

Hey, this thread has gone on for 10 pages now. Has anyone convinced anyone of anything?

[jamesdmanley]

how often does anyone ever change another's mind?

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

Hey, this thread has gone on for 10 pages now. Has anyone convinced anyone of anything?

I've convinced myself that I've spent entirely too much time debating legality, philosophy and morality in the same thread as anything related to computers...

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by mrkai

the point of locking down the stuff with DRM was to make it more appealing *to steal*...preferably, from you, on your terms, where the act of this "stealing" got you paid

About the only way someone's stealing will get me paid, is if they get caught and fined.

[jamesdmanley]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Since writing isn't my chief source of income, I have no problem giving up on it if it is not profitable for me, and I will if it comes to that.

good thing to know. you should put that in the forward of all your books.

photography is by no means an occupation of mine. in fact ive invested thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours and never received a dime, but i have never once asked someone to pay me to look at any of my work or to create work for them. if someone offered to pay me i would be flattered and honored. if people sought out my work to see i would be floored, but never would i turn someone away because of their ability to pay me.