Should Demonoid Stay Down?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by wgrimm

If someone had done that to 2 criminals breaking into my house, I would think that was mighty neighborly of him.

Suppose it had been a kid who'd accidentally thrown a ball through your window, and went inside your house to retrieve it? Do you honestly want a neighbour who's going to shoot to kill first and ask questions later? Someone who tells the emergency operator "I'm going outside to kill them"? That's a rather peculiar definition of "self defence".

Property can be replaced. Human lives cannot.

I fully appreciate that we live in completely different societies when it comes to gun ownership and use, but all the same, I honestly don't see how any decent human being can sanction what appears to be the cold-blooded killing of two unarmed men, AGAINST the specific orders of the law-enforcement authorities.

[jamesdmanley]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Suppose it had been a kid who'd accidentally thrown a ball through your window, and went inside your house to retrieve it? Do you honestly want a neighbour who's going to shoot to kill first and ask questions later? Someone who tells the emergency operator "I'm going outside to kill them"? That's a rather peculiar definition of "self defence".

Property can be replaced. Human lives cannot.

if that kid takes a friend and, instead of going to the front door, uses a crowbar or pry open your side door to retrieve said ball and exits the house 7 minutes later with arm loads of loot that they didnt have before, yes i think think kid should have a few rounds fired at them.

ps - nice edit. they were not unarmed. at least one clearly had a crowbar which he used to enter the home. how many people enter homes illegally unarmed? just ask that football player that was shot this week. oh wait you cant. because hes dead. he was shot by the people who were BURGLARIZING HIS HOME. oh yeah. ONE WAS A MINOR

[wgrimm]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Suppose it had been a kid who'd accidentally thrown a ball through your window, and went inside your house to retrieve it? Do you honestly want a neighbour who's going to shoot to kill first and ask questions later? Someone who tells the emergency operator "I'm going outside to kill them"? That's a rather peculiar definition of "self defence".

Property can be replaced. Human lives cannot.

WHAT???!!! How many kids do you assume are going to break into a house to retrieve a ball? As for the dirtbag burglars that were shot, no, I am not going to waste any time agonizing over their fate. These poor criminally inclined fellows won't be breaking into any more houses, and it looks like TX law doesn't care if dirtbags like this are shot during commission of a crime. Like I said, the solution is simple- don't break into houses. And if you're in Texas, look at all the gun racks in vehicles in that state. Maybe criminals should get some smarts and realize that Texans take their firearms seriously, and don't much care for thieves.....

BTW, what if people had been home in that house? Would it have been okay for THEM to dispatch these criminals with a shotgun?

Maybe this will be a lesson for other criminally-minded folks, just like the recent file-sharing trial put P2P'ers on notice.....

[hidari]

ME THINKS THAT THIS THREAD HAS GONE AWRY!....

Originally Posted by jamesdmanley

if that kid takes a friend and, instead of going to the front door, uses a crowbar or pry open your side door to retrieve said ball and exits the house 7 minutes later with arm loads of loot that they didnt have before, yes i think think kid should have a few rounds fired at them. oh yeah. ONE WAS A MINOR

ps - nice edit. they were not unarmed. at least one clearly had a crowbar which he used to enter the home. how many people enter homes illegally unarmed? just ask that football player that was shot this week. oh wait you cant. because hes dead. he was shot by the people who were BURGLARIZING HIS HOME

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by jamesdmanley

how many people enter homes illegally unarmed?

I don't know about your country, but in the UK, no sensible burglar would carry a gun, because whereas the publishment for burglary might be 6 months in prison, if you were carrying a gun they'd lock you up and throw away the key. I believe there's a mandatory minimum sentence of 10 years for any crime involving carrying or use of a firearm.

Perhaps, though, it's different in the US because guns are so widely available and used? I don't know - it's literally beyond my capability to imagine what it must be like to live in a society where anyone can own guns. To be honest, the very thought of it terrifies me.

As I said, we live in completely different societies. I guess that what we each have is what we want. I wouldn't like to live in a place where kids seem to routinely go on random shooting sprees for 15 minutes of fame. I see that it's happened again today. I don't want to live in a place like that, I really don't .

Let's just agree to differ about this. I don't think we're going to convince each other of the other's viewpoint, do you?

[jamesdmanley]

if criminals were worried about they consequences they wouldnt commit the crime. this is but one reason the death penalty is not an effective deterrent to murder

[wgrimm]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Perhaps, though, it's different in the US because guns are so widely available and used? I don't know - it's literally beyond my capability to imagine what it must be like to live in a society where anyone can own guns. To be honest, the very thought of it terrifies me.

I have to chuckle at this, because it does the exact opposite for me- makes me feel very safe. Have you ever read what George Orwell said about gun ownership in one of his essays? Orwell believed that as long as capable weapons were in the hands of the citizenry, that their govt. would never become totalatarian. I believe that too, and would also like to note that where there is gun ownership and concealed carry, the crime rates go down.

BTW, not "everyone" can own guns here, only law-abiding citizens can.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by wgrimm

BTW, not "everyone" can own guns here, only law-abiding citizens can.

Although the angry, convicted, mentally ill and criminally insane don't seem to have much trouble getting them either...

Yeah, I'd say this thread has gone awry. A bit.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Perhaps, though, it's different in the US because guns are so widely available and used? I don't know - it's literally beyond my capability to imagine what it must be like to live in a society where anyone can own guns. To be honest, the very thought of it terrifies me.

Trust me, Harry... many of us here try hard not to think about it, too.

[hidari]

That goes to the heart of the Matter. As the NRA in America touts.."People kill people "... Not guns... And I agree. But as I read today about another Lunatic you killed many in Nebraska, I am forced once again to alter that NRA prhase...

Unfortunately,,,,USUALLY, STUPID people Kill people... and As Steve pointed out ..Way too many of the angry, the convicted and the lunatics have easy acess to guns.

I travel to the USA every year. People are amazed that I live in Russia. They think everyone carries a Kalishnikov. But, In fact most people do not own guns and I find Moscow a city of well over 10 millon people safer than Portland, Oregon or Orlando, Florida..to name two US cities....

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Although the angry, convicted, mentally ill and criminally insane don't seem to have much trouble getting them either...

Yeah, I'd say this thread has gone awry. A bit.

[Penforhire]

Steve, to your last, um on-topic post, I think we see eye to eye on that. If my e-books get loose on a P2P network due to my intent or carelessness I have some responsibility.

Hey, I can go off-topic as much as the next guy. Since essentially banning private ownership of guns in the UK, gun violence has risen. Imagine that, criminals did not care. On the other hand, you Brits are allowed to use an effective silencer on air rifles while here in the USA the B.A.T.F. seriously frowns (as in jail time) on even that use of a silencer!

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Penforhire

Steve, to your last, um on-topic post, I think we see eye to eye on that. If my e-books get loose on a P2P network due to my intent or carelessness I have some responsibility.

Uh... we were on-topic once?

Originally Posted by Penforhire

Hey, I can go off-topic as much as the next guy. Since essentially banning private ownership of guns in the UK, gun violence has risen. Imagine that, criminals did not care.

What that indicates, in the US and the UK, is that private ownership of guns does not change the amount of gun violence because it does not impact the ability of people to get guns, legally or not. That's a fault of the system, though I don't know how you're gonna fix that.

As far as legal gun ownership curtailing criminal violence, so does video surveillance (ask London and Baltimore). There are ways to cut back on gun violence besides arming the populace.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Penforhire

Hey, I can go off-topic as much as the next guy. Since essentially banning private ownership of guns in the UK, gun violence has risen.

I know, and I find it very troubling. However, compare the figures; in the UK, gun murders are primarily drug dealers killing each other with illegal weapons. I believe we had about 50 murders by shooting last year. That's probably wrong, but I know it's well under 100. What we don't have are the vast number of family argument and accidental shootings with legally-owned weapons that tragically occur in the US. Here, in a family row, someone's likely to pick up a rolling pin and hit their spouse on the head, which is rarely fatal. Unfortunately, in the US, all too often a gun is close to hand and a tragedy results.

They are your laws, however, and I know that many people have strong views about the "right to bear arms", etc. It's for you to decide whether or not that's appropriate for a modern society, not me.

[Penforhire]

Gun statistics lie on both sides of the argument (huh, a pun). Use of firearms to prevent crime by private citizens is rarely reported. While at the same time deaths-by-firearm usually include killings by police in the line of duty.

I do fall into the RKBA side of things. Taking away legal private ownership is only bad to me.

[vivaldirules]

Originally Posted by wgrimm

Well, I guess the solution is- don't break into people's houses. Sorry, I have no sympathy for the scumbags that bought the farm. What they did was certainly not a "victimless" crime. ANd how did they know the house was unoccupied.

If someone had done that to 2 criminals breaking into my house, I would think that was mighty neighborly of him. Now just suppose these 2 criminal scumbags had spent the last week or so pirating music and software. Some people here would be ready to hang'em........

If the two scumbags had been convicted and thrown in jail then I would have had no sympathy for them either. But instead they were shot dead by a vigilante. They have my sympathy.